Cal Blacksmith Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Ok folks, I ran across this information while looking for something else but it is good just the same! It relates to MAGIC WIRES and other retail hi-fi rip-offs. It is certainly worth the time it takes to read it (about 10 min) and if you have an open mind, it makes a lot of sense. Of course, if you just spent big bucks for your magic wires, you can take some comfort in the fact that this is a long time rip-off and you are not alone. The article was written August of 1982. It is Volume 1 no 8 written by Frank Van Alstine. The article is included in the complete 1982 back issue set of Audio basics. In fact, the whole archive is worth the read. Lots of good stuff in there! The link is http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/ab_pdf/ab1982.pdf for me it starts on page 19 and ends on page 22. Enjoy! Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olorin Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Oooh, now you've done it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 That was BEAUTIFUL. And there's a lot of interesting, 'sacred cow' puncturing in the entire newsletter. I'll make certain to read it all. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 frank is a no-nonsense kind of guy..... and he makes a great product..... in the past, customers have asked him for an IEC socket on his equipment so they could add aftermarket power cords and he flat out said that they were crazy to spend any money on that type of product..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 ---------------- On 5/10/2004 10:58:09 AM minn_male42 wrote: frank is a no-nonsense kind of guy..... and he makes a great product..... in the past, customers have asked him for an IEC socket on his equipment so they could add aftermarket power cords and he flat out said that they were crazy to spend any money on that type of product..... ---------------- You know, if the amplifier is so 'sub standard' that changing the power cord would make any discernible audible difference, the quality of the internal components must leave a lot to be desired! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 ---------------- On 5/10/2004 10:58:09 AM minn_male42 wrote: frank is a no-nonsense kind of guy..... and he makes a great product..... in the past, customers have asked him for an IEC socket on his equipment so they could add aftermarket power cords and he flat out said that they were crazy to spend any money on that type of product..... ---------------- You know, if the amplifier is so 'sub standard' that changing the power cord would make any discernible audible difference, the quality of the internal components must leave a lot to be desired! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted May 10, 2004 Author Share Posted May 10, 2004 Oh BTW, the home page is; http://www.avahifi.com/ For the audio basics root page; http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/ but you guys (gals) knew that anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gullahisland Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Great reading. I printed the whole article and have been enjoying it all morning. He does lose a little credibility, however, with his comments about the superiority of the compact disc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 ---------------- On 5/10/2004 4:23:24 PM gullahisland wrote: Great reading. I printed the whole article and have been enjoying it all morning. He does lose a little credibility, however, with his comments about the superiority of the compact disc. ---------------- Remember that was written in 1982, when the CD was just coming out and was the great new thing! To many people, the CD is a superior format. Not everybody has the real high-end turn-tables and the like, thus the CD turned out to be a better format for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gullahisland Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 I would agree that the CD is a better format for MOST people now. But it's taken a LONG time for the technology to catch up. I remember my father purchasing one of the VERY first CD players and how HORRIBLY edgy it sounded. Much of it was the cdp and an equal amount was the recording itself. A lot of those early cds (1984-1990 especially) were just DREADFUL! I would contend, however, that a decent vinyl system vs. an expensive cd system in 1985 sounded far superior. In 2004, the opposite is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Thanks, Wayne. The discussion on speaker wire and patch cords has the ring of truth to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 I printed off the entire archive some time ago. There is a lot of good information there ! Good Stuff ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 Since all wire has capacitance, inductance, and resistance -- and since these three change with cable geometry, dielectrics, length, thickness, etc., -- why is it so difficult to accept that they might change the way the speakers and amp interface with each other? On a good night, I can hear differences -- and though it's never anything worth freaking out about -- there are differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gullahisland Posted May 10, 2004 Share Posted May 10, 2004 ---------------- On 5/10/2004 10:42:16 PM DeanG wrote: On a good night, I can hear differences -- and though it's never anything worth freaking out about -- there are differences. ---------------- Dean - I totally agree with you. There are absolutely differences in the sound of wire. I also agree with you (and Frank Van Alstine) that the differences are extremely subtle and for the premium prices charged - mostly over-priced "magic". I think his point was no so much that there are NO differences as it was that most of these "magic cables" are just fancy window dressing on already existing cabling that can be purchased for 1/10th to 1/100th the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 Agreed about "already existing cabling." This passage lifted from the article is spot on: 1. The capital investment in machinery to actually make wires is very expensive and the equipment is huge. Belden, Columbia, and other actual cable makers have plants the size of automobile assembly plants. Obviously, few little magic speaker wire makers can afford to own a cable manufacturing plant. Consider then that the little magic wire maker does not make their own magic wire. They buy it from some wire manufacturing plant. 2. The cost to tool up to produce a specific kind of cable is also beyond the means of most little magic wire suppliers. Can you imagine a magic wire supplier going into the engineering offices at Belden and asking Oh please kind sirs, will you make me 10,000' of a 1700 strand, quadruple twisted, triple braided, Teflon insulated, titanium coated, neon filled wire? You know what Belden is going to say sure, the tooling charge is $200,000.00 and the minimum order is 50 miles. Guess what folks, in general, the little magic wire supplier cannot afford to have a special wire tooled up by a wire making plant. 3. Consider then that the magic cable is actually purchased from a cable type already produced and stocked by some wire manufacturer. Consider then that the cable in question was tooled and produced by the wire manufacturer for some specific purpose and for some good engineering reason. Consider that the purpose that Belden and others tool and produce cable is not to have magic sonic qualities. 4. Thus folks, the magic you pay for when you buy magic wires was not engineered into it in the tooling stage. The magic was not even produced in the finished product. The magic was added on by the magic wire supplier after the fact, by running around in circles, waving arms a lot, and writing unsubstantiated purple prose advertising claims. 5. I submit that after the fact magic is the most expensive kind of magic you can buy, assuming that you care to buy magic at all. I also suggest that magic is more expensive than electrical engineering. 6. For example, we have recently seen a magic interconnect cable claiming to have an air core with the magic qualities of being very quiet. The price, being magic, is about $10.00 a foot. A little research indicates that the actual cable used is similar to Belden #8254 93 ohm semi-solid polyethylene coaxial cable. Beldens only claims are that the nominal velocity of propagation is 84% (normal) and that the attenuation is about 3.1 dB per 100' at 100 MHz (normal). Beldens price for the cable is about 15¢ per foot in 1000 foot rolls. Although we realize that labor is involved to cut and strip the cable into interconnect lengths, and that RCA phono plugs are furnished and installed, and that the quality of workmanship for this particular finished magic cable was very good (unusual), still the final price for the magic is about 100 times the price of the original engineering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 There's no denying that the prices are ridiculous, I was just more or less pointing out that differences can be heard. High end wire vendors may not be making the wire, but they are probably paying out the rear to have all of these wierd geometries spun out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorcilantro Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 I agree with some of the points in that article. But it came off quite dogmatic to me. Some companies manufacturer wire on small scales for medical and reasearch work e.g. silver wire for your tonearm. Homegrown Audio & VH Audio both offer silver wire that would cost about 10$ for your tonearm wire. While a agree that most of the prices and upper echelon cables are simply ridiculous, something like Belden 89259 in a cross connect turns out to be great speaker cable. It's not complicated nor expensive. Morecroft solid core interconnect is of 1mm diameter (1984) so Dean has a point. Companies are designing geometries and cable to their own design...whether or not it's worth it well...that's debatable and many un-noticable to most of us... Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorv Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 I am skeptical. The inductance and capacitance of speaker wire is measure in micro henrys and pica farads and the value of the inductors and capacitors in crossovers are measured in mili henrys and micro farads (3 orders of magnitude greater). I might conceeded an effect if you bi amp directly into the speakers. Jim N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 I have been a Van Alstine Customer for about as long as this article was written. I know Frank and you do get his opinion from him. I think the main point of the cable issue, is that anyone put to a controlled blind test cannot discern reliably from one wire to the next, no matter how much they protest. So why spend big bucks? Go with an amp or speaker upgrade. BTW - Anyone looking for a killer pre-amp should try Frank's T7. It is what is driving my Welborne DRD45s and Belles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted May 11, 2004 Share Posted May 11, 2004 I'm with jnorv. When you consider the loop equations describing all the components, the wire is probably O.1 percent of the reactive and resistive components. Even with improvements in the wire, they can't change much overall. The speaker and crossover are the major players. By analogy to automobiles, this is like changing weight, horsepower, tire contact size, etc., by 0.1 percent. People of good faith may say that such changes make a noticable difference to perfomance. How this can be is not supported by science. I've never seen an A-B-X test showing that anyone can hear a change. If this was so, the super wire and super connector manufacturers would be crowing it. They don't. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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