maxg Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 That my system sounds great listening to classical at low volumes but not to anything else? Come to that - why does my system do such a great job with classical at any volume but is only average (to my ears) with everything else? It doesnt really much matter to me - as most of my listening is classical anyway - but I am mystified by it. What is so different about the reproduction of classical against all other forms of music? Even music that has been done to resemble classical doesnt quite work as well. For example - the other night I listened to Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds. Now it wasnt bad - but it wouldnt have won any awards - and I had to pump the volume up a fair bit to get it to what I regard as an acceptable level of playback quality. After playing both sides of the first record (it is a 2 record set) I didnt have the desire to continue listening and switched to Aida - lowering the volume back down to my normal listening levels. This was so much more engaging I ended up listening to all 3 records in the album - till way past 2 am. It wasnt just the musical content. It was the portrayal. It wasnt even the difference in the quality of the recordings - the War of the Worlds copy I have is very good. Its just that the system seemd to do justice to the opera and not to the rock-opera. Why? I can think of a ton of possible answers - but none definitive. there is something in classical that is missing from anything else - or there is something not in classical that is present in everything else - enough to boggle the mind. This really hit home last night - I was at Tony's waiting for Vangelis to arrive and we put on a classical compilation album Tony owns. Frankly it sounded dreadful at high volumes and only reasonable at low volumes. In other words - Tony's system is the exact opposite of mine. Great for Rock, Jazz, Blues, Soul etc. etc. - but terrible for classical. Can any system play it all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Max, you are reaching one of the diminishing return conundrums of tube amplification(and well designed and engineered SS,) that being you find the topology that mates well with your listening habits and you travel down that path to the point of least compromises for you. Ofttimes this "natural selection" results in stellar performance in a few areas, standout playback in another few, and average in others. Mark suggested synergy can play an important role in how your amp/preamp dance with the music. A wideband preamp with high output characteristics may constantly argue with a high negative feedback amp that desires a low input signal from its mate. It might be a situation where your combination works best also happens to be the sweet spot for what you desire to listen. Our stereos are somewhat like our cars. 70% of the time, I would be very happy to have one of the new MiniCooper "S"s, roaring around by myself on errands, to and from work, knocking off all those solo journeys with grace and speed, and great handling to boot. Gas is about $2 a gallon right now, so maybe I'll get the original Mini - tons here stateside, great on gas. The only problem is wife, her handicapped twin sister, Liam, and sheltie Shiloh knock us into the Volvo party wagon territory. Decent for mileage, great for hauling Khorns around, but even then not quite enough room sometimes. Compromise, compromise The Blueberry is one of the cleanest preamps I have ever heard that avoids the sound and feel of cold surgical precision that the AES presented to me, and it has no microphonics to work around. I'm hoping that Craig's VRDs will mate well with it, so I can play my Heinz 57 flavors CD collection en toto. Taking a stab in the dark, I'd venture that your combo is great at presenting a very open soundfield at low volumes(great for your classical loves,) but runs into its limits when trying to present the slam and strum that harder material requires continuously. As long as it satisfies your true love, it sounds like you can live with the other compromises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Sheltie Dave, Max has made his puzzle more puzzling than the volume issue. Note that he says classical sounds great at *any* volume on his system, and bad at *any* volume on Tony's system. Max, I'd venture that one of the big problems is that neither you or Tony have Klipsch speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Is it also possible that certain non classical music such as rock/pop is recorded with much more compression than most classical music. Any increase in amplitude with such high energy music may interact with room acoustics causing the unpleasant sound you are experiencing with non classics. This may also sound like an amplifier clipping if the music is played too loudly. Have you tried acoustical damping in you room? Next step of course is equipment upgrade...that's where the real fun starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Max, I forgot to ask, how do vegetables sound on your system? On Tony's system? http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=23879 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Max, Do you have any REALLY good jazz recordings. Any good Blue Notes? I've found those to sound great on just about ANY system. If it weren't for your comparison to Tony's system, I'd say it was your ears and your fondness for classical. Very strange. I've found Larry Clare's system to sound AMAZING with classical music but just very good with rock. His system was also designed around classical. More than coincidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Paul, I misread the link and thaught it was al dente. Man, I was feeling pretty rutabaga about the hole manna. Donut I'm guana do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted June 10, 2004 Author Share Posted June 10, 2004 Hmmm - a few good ideas (and strange legumes to boot) The absence of Klipsch speakers is certainly a possible cause (who am I to argue?) but I would counter that with my friend Nick's system. He has an old Electrocompaniet 50 wpc integrated class A amp driving a pair of Forte's. His passion is Rock music. For Rock it kicks seven layers of crap out of just about any other system I have heard - for Jazz is sucks big time and for classical - dont even ask. That we have each tailored our systems to our music tastes is beyond doubt - that none of us are exactly sure how is really mysterious - by ear alone it seems, during the selection process. No accident, perhaps, that of all the options for tubing on my amp I have gone with EL34's rather than KT88's / 6550's etc. Room treatments are not an issue for me. My room has about the best accoustics I have come across in a house - with no effort on my part - pure luck (and a lot of oil paintings / curtains etc.) Demonstrating how good it is (in winter) is an easy job - come summer out go the carpets and out goes the sound with it! (I was begging SWMBO just the other day to leave them in a little longer this year). Amp clipping - not likely - my amp is 70 wpc with EL34's and 100 wpc with 6550's. Whilst the sound for rock did improve with the 6550's (and worsen for classical) I do not think it was an issue of power. Remember that even when I am really rocking the house I dont exceed 100 dB peaks - and there seems to be plenty left. Come to that when we had my daughter's 2nd birthday we were playing CD's with the volume controls at 3 o'clock - 30 plus people in the room and the place was jumping (and sounded quite good). Didnt measure the volume - but it was high - much higher than I ever go alone (1 o'clock is about my limit). Ultimately I am leaning to the conclusion above - that in selecting the gear we choose to buy we are selecting for the type of music we buy, and therefore, against other types. Again I wonder - can any system play it all?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Mine seems to do it all pretty well. Not quite as good for classical as I'd like however. I'm talking about MKIIIs, Blueberry, VPI TT, Sony 555ES SACD, and cornwalls. Jazz and rock sound great, classical sounds very good. Then again, I'm comparing to Larry's classical system with his Joule Electras, Khorns and Basis TT. Hard to beat and since I hear it at least twice/week it's the sound I strive to achieve but always fall short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 ---------------- On 6/10/2004 9:18:15 AM garymd wrote: Mine seems to do it all pretty well. Not quite as good for classical as I'd like however. I'm talking about MKIIIs, Blueberry, VPI TT, Sony 555ES SACD, and cornwalls. Jazz and rock sound great, classical sounds very good. Then again, I'm comparing to Larry's classical system with his Joule Electras, Khorns and Basis TT. Hard to beat and since I hear it at least twice/week it's the sound I strive to achieve but always fall short. ---------------- Gary, Maybe I need to shoehorn a Triode/UT switch in your amps for you. This might just to the trick to take the edge off Classical. That is if that's what your hearing ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted June 10, 2004 Author Share Posted June 10, 2004 Mark, "I don't get around like I did in the old days, but I recall two of my best audiophile friends, who both spent "their life" tweaking and messing with their stereos and to hear the two systems you would be shocked at the difference. No convergence at all. " Now this is getting interesting - did they listen to similar types of music - or were they eclectic listeners? I ask this for a very specific reason. I have found that people who tend to like a given genre of music actually often manage to converge the sound qualities they get from their systems even when they are coming from very different topologies of equipment. Eclectic listeners' systems, on the other hand, are far more varied. For example. I have 2 friends into Jazz music in a big way. One has a fairly typcial KHorn setup with 300b SET amps, tube pre, vinyl - in other words the systems that litter this forum. The other has B&W 802's, bigass SS amplification, SACD.... The net result is that one has softened the "natural sound" of his speakers and the other has "hardened" it. Overall this has resulted in not at all dissimilar sonics. At least - not as dissimilar as one might expect given the totally different starting points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 I do believe that what one likes shapes his or her component choices, and likewise that component selections can affect what one enjoys listening to. Changes in my system have affected what I like to hear and vice versa. For myself, I have definitely "tuned" my system to bring out the best in classical, and only classical. It's ended up with a rather thin upper bass sound, which I suspect helps definition but definitely not slam. Things I listen for are classical-oriented, such as how cellos sound, how realistically soft violins are, and how accurate woodwinds, brass and percussion sound. Voices are very important, as MarkD says. I definitely consider cymbals, which can be a tonearm and cartridge as well as an electronics issue. Then, in addition to these, I listen for how distinct the instruments and voices are from each other, and how distinct they are from background silence, and from noise such as record scratch. In all, I have tried to choose components that aid in all these factors. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 ---------------- On 6/10/2004 9:42:38 AM NOSValves wrote: ---------------- On 6/10/2004 9:18:15 AM garymd wrote: Mine seems to do it all pretty well. Not quite as good for classical as I'd like however. I'm talking about MKIIIs, Blueberry, VPI TT, Sony 555ES SACD, and cornwalls. Jazz and rock sound great, classical sounds very good. Then again, I'm comparing to Larry's classical system with his Joule Electras, Khorns and Basis TT. Hard to beat and since I hear it at least twice/week it's the sound I strive to achieve but always fall short. ---------------- Gary, Maybe I need to shoehorn a Triode/UT switch in your amps for you. This might just to the trick to take the edge off Classical. That is if that's what your hearing ? Craig ---------------- Craig, Maybe! Classical sounds better now then it ever has on my system but falls short when compared to other music. Maybe when I send you the amps this summer you could give it a try? I'm willing. I'm also starting to consider some new output tubes. Not sure what though. What did you have in mind when we first discussed that option? You can email me or give me a call if you like. Better yet, let's just discuss it over the weekend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 If Nick replaces the mid and tweeter crossover caps in his Fortes with conditioned Hovland Musicaps or Jensen PIOs, then everything will sound good on his system at all volumes. Since you don't use Klipsch speakers, you're stuck. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Gary, I think you should really try an OTL amp....that might take you closer the sound you experience in Larry's home . When it comes to Max's question I am not sure that I agree with what has been expressed, namely that different kinds of music demand different systems. I think that for example a trumpet should sound like a trumpet, no matter if it's playing classical music or jazz. For me it is important that the various timbres of instruments and voices are being reproduced as closely to the 'real' thing as possible. Add to this the ability to inform me about the venue where the performance took place (provided that the recording offers such clues). Now wouldn't those aspects of recorded sound be true for all kinds of music? But perhaps I am missing something important? Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 That is a conundrum. I have read many reviews of speakers and systems that "were good for rock", "good for jazz", etc. I have always had the impression that a good setup would sound equally good on every source material type... That may not be the case in that, the source material and recording techniques are completely different for each type. For rock, who cares about "imaging"? It's just gotta kick the a** of the listener (hopefully) and cause some toe tappin' at the very least. For Jazz, of course, the recording should be hopefully more attentive to creating an atmosphere - slightly better recordings on average. Classical, in MHO, is more likely to have the best (again hopefully) recording techniques employed, as the source is big and can produce some very dynamic changes in volume. Maybe its the recordings? Heck, I don't know.... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 ---------------- On 6/10/2004 8:39:18 AM mdeneen wrote: Now, whereas I do this consciously and purposely, maybe others just do it more intuitively and then over time the results show this. I was on the phone the other day with a guy who's benchmark is "symbols" - now to me, that;s not interesting, but for him, it was his #1 and only rule. mdeneen ---------------- So how do images sound on that guy's system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 "Gary, I think you should really try an OTL amp...." LOL! -- Just what he wanted to hear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 ---------------- On 6/10/2004 3:33:57 AM maxg wrote: Can any system play it all? ---------------- Yes. But that 'system' includes the room and it's acoustics. EDIT: Well, sort of, to a certain extent. As I recently posted in the Architectural topic area, "great auditoriums do not necessarily fulfill all musical & performing arts purposes equally. Take the Krannert Center for the Performing Arts at the University of Illinois for example. Even here, there are 3 separate, dedicated auditoriums (4 main venues), each with its own special design & purpose." IMHO a great playback system should be able to accurately reproduce whatever is given to it. Musical style should not be a bias in the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 ---------------- On 6/10/2004 5:43:07 PM dubai2000 wrote: Gary, I think you should really try an OTL amp....that might take you closer the sound you experience in Larry's home . When it comes to Max's question I am not sure that I agree with what has been expressed, namely that different kinds of music demand different systems. I think that for example a trumpet should sound like a trumpet, no matter if it's playing classical music or jazz. For me it is important that the various timbres of instruments and voices are being reproduced as closely to the 'real' thing as possible. Add to this the ability to inform me about the venue where the performance took place (provided that the recording offers such clues). Now wouldn't those aspects of recorded sound be true for all kinds of music? But perhaps I am missing something important? Wolfram ---------------- Wolfram, First I would need khorns! Then I could decide if my amps are adequate. Since I listen to jazz 75% of the time and all else sounds great (even classical), I'm content. You have to understand that I'm comparing my classical listening to Larry's system. IMO, rock sounds better or at least as good on my system WITHOUT khorns which is saying a lot. My point is, Larry's system is designed for classical music and does it so well it would be impossible to match without changing speakers which I'm not ready (or able) to do at this point. Thanks for the thought though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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