doctorcilantro Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Hey all, Just curious what are people using for external phono stages. I am using a Grado Reference Sonata (4.8mv) and I am looking at the Grado Ph-1. I had considered the Gram Amp 2 SE but I can't find it for under 415$ shipped. I can get the Grado for 431$ shipped and it has more flexability; that it seems to be highly lauded as well. I have a lot of vinyl, it's my birthday, so I am going for it.... Anyone have experience with either of these two...I have pretty much narrowed it down to them. I have previously owned a NAD PP2 (SS) & the ASL mini-phono (tube) standing on the edge of the diving board, ~DC~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorcilantro Posted June 16, 2004 Author Share Posted June 16, 2004 I have been vaguely eyeing the Bottlehead Seduction as well, there are some funny submissions over there..." I had tears running down my face" : D ~DC~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I am performing this same analysis/comparison at the moment. For me I am trying to acheive the most bang for the buck. The three on my shortlist are the Hagerman Cornet, BIY's Cole, and Bottleheads Seduction. There are several reviews which compare the stages you mention above with the ones I listed hear and these stages do very well in those reviews. Actually the Hag is frequently compared to some very expensive stages. Some observations: Cole is most expensive, easiest to assemble, has step-up transformers built in, separate power supply. Few reviews but highly favorable. Uses a PCB. Cornet is middle of the pack in expense, has great and MANY reviews, more ability to tailor the sound through cap upgrades, resistor upgrades, etc. Uses a PCB. Foreplay is cheapest of the bunch. Reviews claim heaven. Comparisons between it and the Cornet generally say something like 'the Seduction was more transparent.' You need to add the upgrade to this one to achieve bliss. This one has a very high output impedence and the man suggests you need a minimum of a 50K input and there is much mention of 100K. After pricing the individual parts, it became clear to me the Hagerman, in fact, has the lowest cost of the bunch. I can upgrade it Hovlands or Auricaps or whatever and still be below the cost of the bottlehead. God knows the Hagerman looks better. I am waiting till next month. Then I will purchase. Quite likely it is the Hagerman but I might spring for the Cole. Just don't know if I need MC, the ability to connect multiple turntables simultaneously, etc. that the Cole offers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Doctor, The Gram unit now has a new case, instead of the tiny old black one. If you decide on the Gram, make sure they send you the new case. On the other hand, I imagine the old-design ones will drop in price on the used market, because of the new case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 I am surprised this thread has not garnered more attention. Could some of you more enlightened phono gurus or circuit masters take a look at the DIY kits and offer some thoughts. Pro's and con's. I can provide links if it would make it easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCM Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 FWIW: I had a Graham Amp 2SE and, for a while thought it "OK". I had little experience though and, by chance happened to meet a local audio nut. He made a hobby of buying used Hafler and PS Audio gear that he modified quite a bit, then re-sold. I purchased a Hafler DH-110 preamp and XL-280 amp from him. He explained how the phono stage had been tweaked to incorporate something referred to as "the missing time constant". He also gave me some papers explaining the theory. Anyway, this old Hafler sounded "MUCH" better than the Graham Amp. I've since moved on to a tube preamp, and am using a AES PH-1 tube phono stage (which can be purchased as a kit). It sounds worlds better than the Graham Amp too, although I still think I prefer the modified old Hafler by a bit (phono stage only, but the preamp is no slouch, either). -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Hi mdeenen, Thankful for your interest. Here are the links: Cornet page - includes schematic DIY Cole Seduction Interested in seeing your thoughts on them as well as others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 ---------------- On 6/18/2004 9:43:34 AM mdeneen wrote: There seems to be an odd economy at work here. While all these vendors seem to be vying for a “low cost” phono stage, what seems to be lost is that after gathering what is required for phono only, such as transfomers, line cords, chassis, PCBs, power supply components and all, adding the functional line stage would be about 10% more cost at that point. However, by making you have a separate linestage with a redundant transfomer, chassis, PSU and the like, your cost to do that is more like a 100% bump. I’m not sure I see the value in this path. But, that’s not what you asked. ---------------- That may very well be the point from the seller's side: doubling the money coming in rather than getting just 10% more. Plus, for decades the idea has been pushed that separates are automatically superior. I've actually *never* before seen an article as sensible as the post you made recently regarding having a phono stage and preamp together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 I think the interesting thing is the *perception* of quality. Imagine looking at a $500 line stage and a $500 phono stage. Imagine looking at a $550 preamp with phono stage. Without knowing anything else, without listening, I venture to say that most people are going to think the two separate units are better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 I, myself, would have preferred an integrated phono stage. The Consonance doesn't come with one though so I have to go this route. I do think the separating of each of the various components is often a conscious decision by companies to increase their sales and profitability. Consonance has a real nice phono stage: you have to buy the basic unit, the power supply, and the step-up transformer. They all look real sweet and the markup has to be wonderful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 I don't see the value in seperates either. That is why I am looking for a combo preamp. It just seems that you can intergrate the two better when they were designed together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 ---------------- On 6/18/2004 11:29:41 AM mdeneen wrote: Right. That's exactly what I think would happen. 500+500 may not even equal 750, let alone 1,500. Now, when I looked at these three, I thought to myself, I don't really see anything here that makes me believe separating the phono is a good idea. I don't rule out there probably are some massive, wild, cool designs which may justify that possibility, but I just haven't seen it/them. mdeneen ---------------- I will still hold that there many valid reasons an individual will go with seperates. The range of issues can begin with budget, and extend through specialized quests for quality. Most preamps with phono, including the Blueberry, are not designed to handle a LOMC, so then what? There are also designers other than you, who KNOW that the included "10%" phono sections can be improved upon greatly with a dedicated piece capable of greater performance, and can produce such that integrate with the parameters of the users system. Many who are still into vinyl are demanding a much higher level of performance than many of those "10%" sections afford. It's not just about bilking the consumer. I can understand an individuals desire to have everything in one box, but I can also easily understand an individuals desire to "roll his own". Klipsch out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 I think what was being said was that adding the line stage circutry to an already existing phono stage was more like a 10% increase in cost compared to tooling up for a separate chassis and power supply etc. for the line stage. Point being that there is a lot of unnecessary parts duplication when separate. The components for adding LOMC are usually quite expensive, and since that is a less common demand, it does make economic sense, to add that on in a separate, although if you already knew up front that you were going to be using LOMC then maybe finding a preamp that included that might be the way to go. I have never shopped tor that type of preamp so I am not sure what is out there, could be that the best way to go would be to add it on. I am curious what the recommendation would be for adding this feature to the Blueberry. C&S oops, mdeneen's post above beat me to the punch..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 ---------------- On 6/18/2004 1:50:38 PM mdeneen wrote: Doing LOMC can range from very cheap like $1 in cost ---------------- Wow! Would the $1 version be unlistenably bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 ---------------- On 6/18/2004 2:24:29 PM mdeneen wrote: To me it would (sound awful), but I can't speak for others. A 69 cent OpAmp would do it, I think. mdeneen P.S. How impolite of me not to say previously to Jazman: Yes, some folks may want to mix and match and even break phono amps into 3 or more separate components. That's one of the million choices everyone get's to make. Certainly doesn't bother me. Someone asked me my opinion of those particular things, and that's what I gave - my opinion. Big market, wide variety of tastes, room for everyone. ---------------- Mark, If the qualifier for your position is a mass market price point, then your position is understood. Many vinyl enthusiast of today want more than that. Exterior shot of this Cornet and parts information can be found at; http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/240338.html Klipsch out. PS. I hope you get that part of my point is the seperate allows one room to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubelover Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 When will you give it a rest? Your obvious dislike of the man and his products is apparent to most everyone. If you don't like them, don't buy them. Quit trying to criticize, second guess, and thrash everything he is about. Live and let live for cryin out loud. He designs what he does for a reason. If you can do better, have at it. Sheesh! I for one don't care for set amplification. That's my choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 "I for one don't care for set amplification. That's my choice." I like it. That's my choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 ---------------- On 6/18/2004 5:13:44 PM tubelover wrote: When will you give it a rest? Your obvious dislike of the man and his products is apparent to most everyone. If you don't like them, don't buy them. Quit trying to criticize, second guess, and thrash everything he is about. Live and let live for cryin out loud. He designs what he does for a reason. If you can do better, have at it. Sheesh! I for one don't care for set amplification. That's my choice.---------------- OK Mr. Parrot, I believe Mark and I were having a very civilized expression of differing points of view. In fact, I even agreed with his position within certain paramaters. Yet, given a larger view that includes growth and more demanding performance, I believe my position has merit and worthy of posting. Your remarks indicate your usual ineptitude with regard to reading comprehension. You can cover your post with a shill login, but your lack of class and dogma remains as more than evident where this originates. I'm sure Mark does not need your assistance, or disciples, or zealots, to express his position. Klipsch out. PS. Mr. Parrot, may I suggest you see someone professionally about your female persona which continues to surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Edmond, Tubinlover is not Paul. Mark, I think Edmond wanted you to see the nice layout and quality Parts: Cerafine electrolyics, Jensen copper PIOs and MIT 10 section MultiCaps. Pricey parts. Nice, but $700 in the form seen above, and you still need a preamp to use it. http://www.hagtech.com/cornet.html I think I've learned that the more filtering the better. Load 'em up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 i tried the grados, and found them to be a bit bright, and a bit lacking with my sumiko blupoint, and than i tried the musical fidelity xlps 11 it is well balanced and very musical, it can be picked up for under 300 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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