dodger Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 ---------------- On 7/27/2004 5:46:31 PM paulparrot wrote: Dodger, This is grand news for audio engineers! Anything goes, boys! Nothing is perfect, everyone's different, so don't sweat the design details. Just come up with a nice looking chassis. ---------------- Hello: In a way that is the approach of some, note I say some, Engineers. But with all of the variables in human hearing, Microphones, deliberate distortion by the musician by overdriving their equipment.... There are differences in the sound a mixing board, Tape Deck even the "Professional" one (1) inch Master Recorders, analogue, digital. Compare an Electro Voice board to a Mackie or a Behringer. Another example of hearing distortion - go to a concert, listen, then try a pair of hearing protectors - you may notice no mid-range blur, harmonies, more bass definition. That would be definitely indicative of the person's hearing, Not always too much volume. Why does one believe Violin makers tried so hard to figure out the formulation of the finish of a Strad? X-Rays had confirmed the placing of the internal braces, the glue formulation had been closely matched. In the end a very good part of the quality sound was due to the finish. If you take a Professional Recording Course at a well noted School such as The Eastman School of Music, you will be taught all of the above along with practical points. Actual Recording of: a String Quartet, Piano, Single Vocalist, Multiple vocalists, Ensemble, Jazz, Electric and Acoustic Instruments, brass, Woodwind Etc.. You will be allowed to use different brand microphones, placement, use different Boards and on and on. The Human Hearing Ability is also Taught. Plus there is numerous years of Actual Live or Studio Recording. And lastly a great friendship with Dr. Paul Harrington, an Otolaryngologist and some time spent at Rochester Hearing and Speech Center. And everybody IS different: tastes, volume levels, what they listen to, and the quality of the CD, Vinyl, digital source, etc.. dodger Edit: Regarding Power, refer to PWKs "Dope from Hope." And look at a response graph from any Klipsch Speaker - if we just looked at graphs, how many would buy Klipsch? There are Speakers made that have a much smoother response curve. They may need more power and that may drive PP amps to clipping, Distortion and it was noted Compression - slightly off in stating Compression. So if you have a speaker with the anomolies of the Klipsch Heritage Line, how can anyone argue what you are hearing? dodger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Hello: Cut Sheet Ad for Klipschorn: noted in lower left corner # FIS 068620M: Specifications: Bandwidth: 35 HZ - 17 kHZ + or - 3 DB Sensitivity: 104 dB SPL one watt one meter Nominal Impedance: 8 Ohms MAXIMUM CONTINUOUS POWER HANDLING: 100 watts ENCLOSURE TYPE: Fully Horn Loaded, three way system. Drive Components: K-77-M tweeter K-55-M midrange K-33 - E woofer Then dimensions and weight. There seems to be a MINIMUM POWER REQUIREMENT missing. Perhaps the point of 104 dB at one watt one meter gives a hint? I can go back to much earlier and find the same point. Interesting. dodger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 "so don't sweat the design details. Just come up with a nice looking chassis." Isnt that something akin to what Adam said to God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchist Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 ---------------- On 7/27/2004 10:01:23 PM paulparrot wrote: I'm sorry that you can't understand such simple text. It says what it says. Or as they say in court, "The document speaks for itself." PWK suggests 20W minimum in his Klipsch manual. Are you with me that far? In the complete ad he explains in great detail why you need 20W per channel. He even uses the word "REQUIRES" in the page you reference. LOL!!! Follow me on that one? You do know what the word "requires" means? There are no contradictions on PWK's recommendations. ---------------- Paul, From the manual - "20 watts minimum" From your ad posted - "...will reproduce anything a full symphony orchestra can produce. To do it requires no more than 60 watts..." Now in most elementary schools, one would immediately ascertain that requires no more than is synonymous with maximum. It is those three little words that follow 'requires' that provide context. Are you with me so far or have I lost you in the details? Follow along, now young Jedi. So, on one hand we have "20 watts minimum and on the other we have "20 watts maximum. In any corner of the world, it is immediately recognized the two hands are not holding the same thing. If you claim each hand holds the same, you are contradicting yourself. Reading comprehension was apparently not a highly thought of skill wherever you acquired your basic learning skills. Now that I am done dismantling your ill-conceived argument, please refrain from questioning my reading ability. It is called projection. You need a therapist. Anyone who places his faith in Marketing Brochures has even larger issues we won't delve into and it is doubtful anything less than shock therapy would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 I disagree with Dean's colorful description about my living room swallowing up sound like a black hole. But it does have a lot of cubic feet to fill. The thing is, no SET amp has ever graced my living room. My listening experiences with SET were in much smaller rooms, rooms in which *low-powered* SET proved totally inadequate. The room dimensions: 24.5 feet wide. Depth is from 19 feet deep at its minimum to 38 feet deep maximum. The room doesn't have doors on it that lead to other rooms--it is more of an open design. The walls are 10 feet straight up, then into an A-frame peaking at around 22 feet. A loft overlooks the first floor area, and the loft also makes the depth of the second floor level to be 38 feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Anarchist: "Requires no more than" is NOT synonymous with "maximum." You've built your entire argument around a false premise. Sorry; better luck next time. Let's say your doctor tells you that you should get an aerobic workout. "How long will that take, Doctor?" "Just fifteen minutes, three times a week." "Would it kill me if I exercised more than that, Doctor?" "No, you require a minimum of fifteen minutes, three times a week. But feel free to exercise more." "I require no more than fifteen minutes, three times a week?" "Right." "So I will die if I exercise sixteen? Because the requirement is fifteen exactly?" "No! Fifteen is your minimum requirement; you can exercise more if you want to." "But Doctor, wouldn't exercising for thirty seconds once a week be just as good?" "No, Anarchist, it wouldn't. What is it that makes you not understand simple instructions?" Anarchist then leaves the building, telling anyone who will listen to his rant that the doctor doesn't know what he is talking about, keeps gives him contradictory advice, and should never have been licensed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 ---------------- On 7/28/2004 3:49:03 AM edwinr wrote: ..."How large is your music room? Mine is 36 feet by 34 feet or about 108 square feet (not including a small alcove). My Klipschorns are powered by an 18 to 20 watt per channel tube amp. My listening levels (measured by digital spl meter from a distance of 3.5 yards) average 95 db when listening to the 1812 Overture but peaking on the cannon shots at 105 db. I consider that loud! Would 3.5 watt SET be able to achieve those listening levels in a room my size? Genuine question!" ---------------- It's friggin' huge! Last time I saw a residence with a room similar in size to Paul's room, it had a 17 rank 1927 WurliTzer theatre pipe organ installed in it! No joke! I don't know if even my 8 watt SET would be able to reach the levels you indicate for your room, but I'd love to find out. Give it a try, edwinr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 The above is a picture Johnny dB snapped when he stopped by to purchase my Heresies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Trust me a 8 watt amp in Paul's room would be similar to a table radio in most normal size rooms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Well then, I guess I'm glad not to have a mini cathedral inside my home, because my 8 watt BEZ ain't goin' nowhere (that's what I said about all my Macs, too). I'd still like to have a listen someday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 I can fit my whole house in that room. An amazing room Paul, two Khorns, a Belle in the middle and three Heresys up front. I would imagine that it takes a fair bit of power to fill that room, that little 6W SET system would be rather flea powered in this environment. Neo/Paul: I don't think you are talking similar environments (room settings) and the love of SET or PP is effected by the setting in which either is placed and the volume of the music. I am glad to see your music room Paul. It really helps me understand where you are coming from with some of your comments. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 ---------------- On 7/28/2004 9:59:52 AM NOSValves wrote: Trust me a 8 watt amp in Paul's room would be similar to a table radio in most normal size rooms. ---------------- Hello: If no SET has ever graced his room, we DO NOT know. ANSI guidelines for the possibility of hearing damage note exposure to sustained 85 dB can lead to hearing damage or Tinnitus. There are as stated some instances where a shorter exposure to 85 dB can do the same - Tinnitus Today magazine, utilized in most Not for Profit Hearing and Speech Centers. As for the argument of room acoustics, ANSI guideline RT 60 addresses that for hearing impaired children classroom acoustics, but also an article in Hearing Today on Classroom Acoustics is an aid for normal hearing students, noting normal hearing, sound levels, desired levels are "subjective." Addressing the so called minimum power needed, that is a cover your behind because you don't know what size room, level desired, acoustics will be encountered. Advents were not the most efficient of Speaker, with a higher recommended power requirement. 95 + dB with no hint of clippng, low or high end distortion or blurring of the mids were accomplished in a 24' x 36' room using a PP with half the required minimum power. Next post will include specs for early to mid 1970's LaScalas. Will there be a minimum.... Is 17,000 HZ adequate for full reproduction of the full spectrum? Will there be changes to the tables for dB exposure and Hearing Problems? What are the guidelines now? How quickly does the SPL drop? If one watt is 104 dB SPL, two watts will bring it to an approximate 107 dB SPL at one meter (about one yard.) Four watts should increase the SPL at one meter to an approximate of 110 dB all the way to the stated 17,000 Hz. Eight Watts Approximately 113 dB SPL Sixteen Watts - 116 (approx.) Thirty-two Watts - 119 dB SPL Sixty-Four Watts - 122 dB SPL (approx.) at one meter. Now figure in decay time, reverberation, speaker projection beyond one meter, other points of LxWxH of the room, positioning of the listener. Now include the factors of the individual's Hearing Curve, Gender - perceptions of high and lows are different according to gender, quality of the person's hearing, range of hearing and any damage to inner ear hairs, eardrum, the sensitivity of the person's hearing, etc.. If one questions the approximations of SPL increase in relation to watt increase or the factors of which there are still others, consult your local Audiologist, working at a non-profit as they have no agenda to wards pushing a brand, or your local Otolaryngologist, or try searches on Google. Also refer to The Musicians Against Hearing Loss. Also the Dope from Hope as written by PWK. Tune in and find out more later. dodger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Paul's room is large but it is hardly the ideal or average listening room. That said, it just proves that PP should be the last to recommend to us "average Joes" what amps we should use. Now if you move your Khorns and Belles into your bedroom............ Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 ---------------- On 7/28/2004 10:33:07 AM Dflip wrote: An amazing room Paul, two Khorns, a Belle in the middle and three Heresys up front. ---------------- Thanks, Don. The Heresies are now Johnny dB's. I used to have them as center and surround speakers, and now I use Belle Klipsches instead. The surrounds are out of the viewing range of the camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted July 28, 2004 Author Share Posted July 28, 2004 "Neo/Paul: I don't think you are talking similar environments (room settings) and the love of SET or PP is effected by the setting in which either is placed and the volume of the music." Right of the bat Paul is making a fatal mistake. Whenever someone asks about SET he'll immediately assume that their music listening room is as big as his and SET amp is a no no. Of Coarse, Paul will deny this. It's a FACT that many members of this forum DO NOT have cathedral-size music listening room. My Moondogs are driving my Cornwalls with finesse and in perfect harmony with my 10x10x10 room. I enjoy live symphonies and concerts every day without leaving the house. And that's all it matters to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 ---------------- On 7/28/2004 10:53:17 AM 3dzapper wrote: Paul's room is large but it is hardly the ideal or average listening room. That said, it just proves that PP should be the last to recommend to us "average Joes" what amps we should use. ---------------- Rick, As I said above, my SET judgments are not based on my room, but much smaller rooms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Win, Well 14 watts was tried and it couldn't even begin cut the mustard ! So dropping 6 watts off is some how going to improve the situation ? Hell at the that time my Mark III's were in Triode at 30 watts and I thought for my taste they would of done better in UT at 60 watts. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 ---------------- On 7/27/2004 10:01:23 PM paulparrot wrote: PWK suggests 20W minimum in his Klipsch manual. Are you with me that far? In the complete ad he explains in great detail why you need 20W per channel. He even uses the word "REQUIRES" in the page you reference. LOL!!! Follow me on that one? You do know what the word "requires" means? There are no contradictions on PWK's recommendations. ---------------- Wait a minute, here! Just 'cause PWK said it, don't make it true! One has to remember that PWK was first-and-foremost SELLING his products. He had to come up with a GENERAL statement to meet MOST of the potential customers questions with regard to a countless variety of environments that he could not possibly hope to address. I have found that the minimum requirements of a pair of Khorns in a 15 foot wide room "configured" or reasonably optimised for them to be 1 watt (or slightly less). Just enough to get the response to "flatten out". I believe that at one point, PWK published a Klipschorn 3 watt minimum requirement, but I'll have to double-check that. Sorry, Paul, but your environment is more of an exception than the rule, and of course, your requirements are different. Let's not be pendantic when it comes to PWK... He had his reasons. DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubelover Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Why believe anything PWK said at all then? I suppose he must have exaggerated the specs on all the heritage speakers too? If PWK designed the speakers, why would one question his suggestions or requirements for optimal listening? You might as well buy Bose. That or develop your own SET speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 Is the dope from hope available in pdf or downloadable format? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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