artto and the khorn - a (depressing) review

[DrWho]

Well it's been a while since I've been able to write, but last Thursday I managed to make a trip to artto's place and give his system a listen. Since I don't have much time to write at this moment, I just want to take the time to write some of my impressions...

Well the first thing that came out of my mouth after listening to the first few songs was always "Holy Crap!" I was truly amazed and felt totally in a different world.

I think we listened to various different music for at least 4 hours. At the end, we listened to some music I brought with me and I left a very depressed person.

So if my emotion after I left is reflective of the experience I had, then I suppose that I found the khorns and artto's room to be very depressing. In fact, it wasn't until I played music in my car that I was able to resume enjoyment...I'll be sure to write more when I've got more time. Hopefully this first post will spur some interest

hey artto...no worries, I think you know where this thread is going; just wanted to get the other guys wondering (oops, did that give me away?)

[whodidit]

WWEEELLLLL I guess arto got a GREAT system, as well as a GREAT room, with all the accoutrements.....Arrto call me, and lets arrange a get together, i wannna check out your system and have you check out my NEW toy.

Smilin for u

[Chris Robinson]

Yeah, you were probably depressed because there's no place to go but DOWN after a session like that.

I'm here in my living room listening to Fourplay's latest (Journey) through Klipschorns and JFL Horuses ... and it sounds really unbelievable to me. And this room is just awful. I think I mention to my wife at least once a week that our next house will be laid out from the bottom up for fun living and non-stop music.

Artto's worked really, really hard on getting that room just right, and he's very knowledgeable to boot. I've kept a lot of his posts as notes for me to refer to when I do get around to building a new home.

_______________________________

Music Hall MMF-7 Turntable w/Goldring Eroica H MC

Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CDP

Wright Sound WPP-100C Phono Stage

JF Lessard Pantheon 6SN7 SRPP Preamp w/ RCA 5R4GY & Sylvania 6SN7

JF Lessard Horus Parafeed Cobalt 2A3 Monoblocks w/ Tung Sol 5687 & AVVT 2A3

1976 KCBR Klipschorns with ALK Crossovers

Gear Online: Two Channel & Home Theater Systems

[DrWho]

"GREAT"??? it was depressing! hehe

[bdc]

Instead of simply saying it was depressing, you should elaborate a little more so we know exactly what you're talking about.

[mikebse2a3]

Let me guess.

The music was very dynamic and life like.

You could here the room acoustics(side/back walls of the recording venues.

Great clarity/detail and vocals that are so realistic!

Soundstage that was very three demisional and a very accurate since of scale!

The system created an emotional connection with the artist's music!!

now I'm DEPRESSED

mike

[artto]

I thought you all might be interested in what we listened to.

Solo, Yo Yo Ma, SACD, first two tracks

SuperBass 2, Ray Brown, SACD, first few tracks

A Life, Bill Elgart, SACD, first few tracks. Originally recorded on analog 30ips. A Mark Levinson recording

Kind of Blue, Miles Davis. SACD. Originally recorded analog, 1958

Up, Peter Gabriel. SACD, first few tracks. Played loud. 100-106dB average SPL

Stimela, Hugh Masekela. CD. From the Burmester CD-3 demo disc

Poet of the Chinese Drums, Yim Hok-Man. CD. From the Burmester CD-3 demo disc

Comin From a Good Place, Harry James. LP, side two. Sheffield Lab direct to disk.

Crime of the Century, Supertramp. LP, side one. Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab reissue. Played loud. 100-106dB average SPL

'Tower of Power Direct', Tower of Power. LP, 'What is Hip' & 'Squib Cakes'. Sheffield Lab direct to disk. Played loud. 106dB average SPL

Mikes discs:

Nightwish, CD

Three Dog Night, CD

BTW Mike, I have the Three Dog Night on original LP. The original recording is not mastered very well, so dont feel bad that your CD didnt sound very good. It sounds just as bad as the original!

The Shanling SCD-T200 SACD player was used for all SACD & CD using the tube output. This player was driving the Luxman MB3045 power amps directly with no preamp in between.

Analog duties were performed on the Linn Sondek LP12 with damped SME III arm and Shure V-15 type Vmr, Audio Research SP6B preamp driving the Luxman.

[bdc]

I'd like to hear what he thought was depressing about the audition.

[jt1stcav]

It's a fact...after listening to artto's wonderful valve-powered system, you could only go home depressed (knowing your own system that you thought sounded spectacular sounds nothing like artto's magical system/room, or probably never will). That's why I wouldn't want to hear artto's rig; I'd probably go home and trash my 300Bs and kick in my Cornwall's woofers!

[edwinr]

And why was it depressing?

We're still waiting...........

[edwinr]

....and still waiting.

[Klipschfoot]

Should you feel the same when returning from a live concert and putting on the artist's CD/LP/DVD?

Gimme a break. So it may be like returning home from an IMAX presentation. There SHOULD be systems like this. ARTTO owns one and should be given his due for his investment. But how many have a spare room for a totally dedicated audio system? He even admits that his S.O. allows him this luxury.

So why should you even compare yours to his? Do you want network racks in your living room? Probably not. Live in your own world. Compromise where necessary. Enjoy what you have. Listen to GOOD music. Focus on what means most.

[DrWho]

ok, well here goes a full review...

Since audio is a very subjective and relative matter, I'm going to provide some of my own personal background so as to put my comments into a as proper perspective as possible. That said, I am 20 years old. I grew up never listening actually listening to recorded music except my dad's 80's rock always in the background. My friends also played a lot of Beatles and there were times when we would sit for hours listening to them on crappy sony discman portable speakers, but this was rather rare. My family however is very musical; my mom is a piano major and also sings soprano and my dad sings bass and baratone, but prefers the latter. At the age of 8, I began my audio career as a live mixer for a contemporary chuch with a very decent system. In 7th grade, I began playing Viola and participated in a lot of advanced groups and competitions throughout Illinois. I quit playing viola after I graduated from Highschool (got bored, what can i say). Around the age of 16, I began mixing for various rock groups that toured around the midwest and by the age of 19, my very first recorded album made radio airplay in Central Illinois. Currently I'm a professional audio installer for Audio Designs Inc. I also have been running a volunteer tape studio that I converted to a digital studio for the last 2 years and have produced many small recordings there as well. And lastly, as a hobby I build speakers from scratch...as in wind my own voicecoils, build my own motors and diaphragms and all that (i'm yet to get something that sounds halfway decent).

Now all that said, I never regularly listened to recorded music personally until I was 17 years old. The main reason was that I found it either fatiguing, boring, or I was afraid that I would ruin my ears (both physically in damaging my ears and psychologically in how I listen to things). The only reason I started listening to music was because I had a very boring job as a data entry clerk for an audit center and listening to techno increased my speed and accuracy (and decreased the amount of time it seemed to take). After that, I started hunting down music that fulfilled my tastes and that's when I stumbled upon metal opera stuff (like Evanescence, Nightwish and Avantasia). I almost forgot...I did want to mention that I'm usually a bit shy, not very talkative, and I tend to be extremely overly critical of everything.

Ok, so enough about me. Just keep all that in mind in order to put my comments into perspective. Now onto my visit to artto...

Art gave me good directions to his house, but due to a disturbing phone call I missed my turn (not realizing it) and went way out of my way. So instead of 5 minutes early, I was like 20 minutes late. No worries though, Art is a really cool guy. So we go into his house and down the stairs and then walk into his room. The first thing you notice is the noise floor drop through the floor. It wasn't eery (like some studios I've been in), but it was close. The first thought that ran through my mind was, "I hope he didn't get carried away and make this place sound totally dead." It wasn't a big concern, but you never know until after you listen. The next thing I noticed was how much darker and cooler it looked than the photos Art has provided in the architectural forum. It was also much smaller than the photos as well (i was picturing a huge hall almost).

I think we spent the next half hour looking at his equipment and talking about how he acquired it all and all that stuff. I'm glad he's posted the equipment we listened to because I couldn't remember half the stuff he owned. His setup was very clean and tidy and it was all resting on custom made racks that he made himself, very nice.

After that, artto sits me down in the captain's chair in the sweetest spot in the room while he sits off to my left next to the equipment racks. He pulls out a Yo Yo Ma SACD and I was rather excited. This was going to be my first time listening to khorns and my first time listening to tubes. During the first track, I kept my eyes open during the whole thing and was looking around the room trying to hear how the room was manipulating the sound...wondering what would happen if this or that treatment was done differently or wasn't there at all. To be honest, I wasn't able to hear anything from the room itself. It honestly felt like we were in the hall that this recording was made in. At the end of the track, I was very stunned at the size and depth of the sound as well as the quality. As I already mentioned, all I could say was "Holy Crap!"

During the next track, I closed my eyes and got wrapped up in the music. Everytime my eyes opened, I got dizzy because I was expecting to see a different room when there were 3 huge speakers staring right at me. I felt exactly the same way as when you do coming out of a surgery for which you've been knocked out. This alone made my trip worthwhile.

The next album we listened to I believe was the one with 3 upright bass players with a little percussion in the background. Again, another good recording that was very good at faking you out. There were only 2 problems I had with it. First, I'm not a jazz fan at all (eek, I guess I'm too young yet to appreciate it). Second, it was a live recording and when the people would applaud, it drove me nuts because it was totally coming from in front of me. The mental picture of the room that I was faked into being in had me in the front row of the audience...so the applauding should have come from behind. Since I was already convinced that I was somewhere else (I had my eyes closed most of the time), hearing the applause actually made me feel unneasy for the first few moments. For me, this would be enough reason to invest into rear speakers...if not totally discrete, then perhaps something like Zoned Dual Mono (front right and rear right play the same thing and front left and rear left play the same thing). I'd say that the magnitude that this small detail bothered me is enough to say how convincing everything else was.

Skipping ahead, the Peter Gabriel song we listened to was rather interesting. I believe it was a typicall modern recording in that every instrument was mic'd seperately and all that. It totally felt like I was almost standing on top of everything at the same time...a feeling that is way cool and that I've only experienced once before in another studio. However, that feeling was lost when the song went into the softer sections. If you've ever heard the song, it's very industrial and loud for sections and then other sections are what I've always remember Peter Gabriel as sounding like. Art said that he felt that it was a little over produced as well...

'The poet of the Chinese drums' was another album that stuck out in my memory. It was very powerful and intense. However, this was the first time I started hearing a flaw in the system...though, I'm not sure if it's a flaw in the system or the source material or the room or what. I haven't spent enough time in the room to make good conclusions. I'll get back to "the flaw" later on in this review...Anyways, the album was still amazing.

Skipping ahead again, we switched over from SACD and CD to vinyl. I've never heard a good LP before so this was another new experience for me. The first song we listened to was a recording of a bunch of horn players and it was also capable of placing you into a new environment. Art was telling me that an LP is cut live while the musicians play and that the entire LP is recorded all at once (news to me which made me respect the musicians that much more). I believe this is the key reason that many people love vinyl...the musicianship is way better. However, since i've never heard a lot of analog growing up, the noise floor and the occasional pop and click and all that would lead me to continue on listening to digital without any looking back. Many argue that analog sounds more liquid and I can't deny that. However, it also sounds a bit more muddy or slow or something like that...It's hard to describe. And since this was the first time that I heard the different set of distortions, I found it unnatural and hard to become acustomed to. For what it's worth, I also had trouble listening to the vinyl because for some reason, my mind kept drifting back to the disturbing phone call I recieved earlier (to put it simply, I sold a car to somebody that wants me to pay them back in excess of what they've paid because they've acquired new debts totally unrelated to me and they plan on suing me. I've got the law on my side, but it's still annoying. And no, I didn't screw the guy over either). Anyways, it is totally plausible to claim that the lack of enjoyment with LP was due to my state of mind (I was angry and a bit worried).

After all that, I ran back up to my car to grab some of the music that I really enjoy listening to. The first album I presented was Century Child by Nightwish. Before making this visit, Nightwish was the best recording I had ever heard in my life and I enjoy it very much. At home on my Marantz 940's powered by a Denon 1803 (so nothing spectacular), I've always been able to arrive at the same level of feeling somewhere else as I did listening to the albums Art presented me with. But on Art's system, it was a most horrid experience. It felt a bit compressed and totally lacking in bass and the distortion in the guitars was ear piercing. The vocals sounded pretty much the same though. I didn't know what to think at this point. In fact, I still don't know, but I've got some theories...and yes, I'll be coming back to this later.

So after that awful experience, I confidently suggest listening to some Three Dog Night - "Joy to the World." (the "jeremiah was a bullfrog, was a good friend of mine" song...everyone i know has heard it). So we start listening to it and I almost had him stop the track before it finished...it was the most awful thing I've ever heard in my life. I was a bit angry at this point because this was another album that has brought me such joy in the past. And it's not like I'm deaf or anything either...I've grown up around live sound and my ears are rather sensitive too (anything over 105db is usually very uncomfortable).

Well if you haven't caught on, this is where the depressing part comes in: Music that I love sounds like crap on a revealing system and music that I don't care for sounds fricken awesome on a revealing system. The contrapositive is true as well (at least I think that's what it's called): Music that I love sounds fricken amazing on a less revealing system and music that I don't care for sounds dumb on a less revealing system.

That said, I want to address "The Flaw" which I believe to be the only point of critique with Art's system. I mentioned earlier that things at times seemed to sound bass shy...especially with my albums. Not only did it sound bass shy, but the bass itself sounded very boxy sounding as well. According to Art's frequency response measurements, he has obtained a flat response down to 16Hz (I think that's the right number). So it's not very likely that there's anything significantly wrong with his system...not to the degree that I heard. So where does this boxy sound come from? Was it the 50 watt tube amps? I highly doubt it, but my lack of experience with tubes prevents me from convincing myself of that. To be honest, I haven't a clue, but I do have a theory...

The khorn is a fully horn loaded speaker. Every studio I've ever been to in my life doesn't use any form of horn loaded speakers. Even the majority of studios and studio monitors that I read about are all direct radiators. For the sake of this discussion, let's discuss the bass reproduction of Art's system and that of the studios I've been in (which are most likely similar to the studios my albums were recorded in). Whenever I read comparisons between HL (horn loaded) bass and DR (direct radiating) bass, the HL speaker always sounds more tight and less boomy whereas the DR bass is boomier sounding. Another key factor is that the Modular Distortion in a DR is way insanely higher than in a horn; I believe it's somewhere around a third order magnitude difference (aka, more than a thousand times). At my home, my direct radiating speakers have a fairly flat response down to about 20Hz. So apart from the difference between DR and HL speakers, the only other significant difference I can imagine would be the reverberation time...which I would assume to be longer in my room than Art's.

Ok, now my conclusion. In the studio the recording is being perfected using a direct radiating subwoofer...I believe that bass that sounds "good" in that situation can very easily sound thin when played back with horn loaded bass. I also believe that this same phenomenon could hold true when applied to the higher frequencies as well. For example, distorted guitars would sound less shrill on a system that introduces modular distortion. This makes sense because distorting distortion makes the original distortion sound much less harsh (talk to any hair metal guitar player and they'll tell you the same thing...they're usually looking for the hardest sound they can get and using multiple distortion pedals doesn't do the trick).

Now if all that crap is true to any extent, "The Flaw" really isn't technically a flaw after all because the speakers are more accurately portraying what has been recorded. However, it is unfair to say the recording itself is bad because it was conducted using and expecting a different kind of speaker for playback. And it is this fact that is depressing, because the hornloaded khorns in a very good room (like Art's) simulate a realism beyond imagination. It was the first time that I've ever experienced being unable to hear the room nor the speakers...it was just me and the music, oh and Art off to the side watching me be dumbfounded.

Now to bring this review to a close, I just wanted to make a few more remarks. First, I think I might have spent more time on the critical aspect of my visit and I just wanted to remind y'all that it's way easier to be critical and there's usually more to talk about in that regard. Those of you that have heard Art's system, or have heard a pair of khorns in a good room know how fricken awesome it sounds. Don't let that get lost in this review...if I was a cartoon, my jaw would have had to be literally lifted up off the floor and a crew of moppers to wipe up the drool. I also wanted to thank Art for being a really cool host and allowing me such a cool opportunity. I also learned way too much while I was there, but I'll save all of you from boring you with that, lol.

Another thing I have been thinking about in retrospect is that the room might have been a touch on the dead side. I say this hesitantly because it's such a small touch. I only mention this though because my ears are fresh to the room versus tweaking for the last 20 years or so (yes, Art has been working on this room for that long). I know Art mentioned going back to a wood floor in the room or at least part of the room and I'd have to say that sounds like a good idea. Though, I think the diffusors for the cieling you're talking about might just be that edge to help open up the room as well...if not, then that insulation stuff to go behind the masonite. I do remember it didn't sound at all dead at lower volumes. Perhaps that's the room overloading thing you were talking about earlier when explaining what the romex or whatever it was that you're putting in. Anyways, let me know what you think, Art. Maybe I'm just acustomed to really long reverberation and I should be trying to break that mindset.

[DrWho]

oh crap, sorry for the long post...it bloody took me 2 hours to write!

btw, artto said he's never gotten a bad review from anyone that's listened to his system...i tried my hardest to make it sound bad without lying (i think i might have failed miserably)

[gullahisland]

"This was going to be my first time listening to khorns and my first time listening to tubes."

Nice read. Very well done. However, I think the above quote (for me at least) causes me to take your comments with the proverbial grain of salt.

Hearing tubes and Klipschorns can be a bit of a religious experience...even in a less than optimal setting.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Good thing most engineers use those nasty Yamaha NS 10's too right to mix on?? hahahahahaha

[DrWho]

----------------

On 8/1/2004 1:07:11 AM gullahisland wrote:

"This was going to be my first time listening to khorns and my first time listening to tubes."

Nice read. Very well done. However, I think the above quote (for me at least) causes me to take your comments with the proverbial grain of salt.

Hearing tubes and Klipschorns can be a bit of a religious experience...even in a less than optimal setting.

----------------

hmm, i don't know what you mean by that...I don't think I dissed tubes and I didn't have a chance to listen on SS (which I'd like to do sometime actually) so it's not like I was flaming either of em.

I was thinking...I actually brought my speakers with to do a comparison in the room with the khorns but we never got around to it. I wonder what Art might think of the "crap recordings" being played on the Marantz 940's...I think I should also try listening to some of the amazing albums Art owns and see if I can experience the same realism at home.

Ugh, so many new variables...this is gonna be driving me nuts for a while until I get it all sorted out in me head (and when that happens, something else is gonna change everything else around).

[mikebse2a3]

DrWho

Your observation on recording qualties is dead on and I don't think it will change for an extremely long time if ever.How frustrating when a recording sounds pretty good on a car radio say only to sound unlistenable on a really good system.

So what can we do about it if we want realistic reproduction when the recordings vary all over the place?

There are times when I've had to use a Dynaco Pass preamp with tone controls just to be able to get listenable sound on some recordings that I or friends want to hear.

I've decided at this point in time to setup my system to play recordings that are recorded with great care to capture a realistic sound and then if necessary alter its sound with the Dynaco Preamp when recordings need help to sound good. I'd guess an equalizer with several programble settings would be better for this purpose.

mike

[dubai2000]

It's indeed questionable how many recodings are mixed with really good stereo systems in mind. I suppose a large number of consumers simply like to listen to their CDs in cars or on less than stellar audio equipment at home, so it's not really surprising that recordings are mixed with those people (and their playback devices in mind).

Very recently I have been introduced to a so-called 'psycho-acoustic' processor called 'Vitalizer' by SPL (Behringer offer such a device called 'Ultrafex T1954' as well at a lower price). Now like many people I was conditioned to mistrust any additions to the signal path, but listening to the SPL really made me wonder. Suddenly muddy (and even very good) recordings had more clarity and dynamics, a more pronounced live feeling than before. Switching the unit off was really like adding cotton to one's ears. I admit I am still surprised by what I heard, but I will certainly try to borrow such a processor to give it a more thorough audition in my own listening room.

Wolfram

BTW: I am not really able to describe technically what such units do, so in case you are interested (and so far I think it might be worth investigating!) try either the Behringer or SPL websites.

[Erik Mandaville]

Hi, DrWho:

Very good review, and nicely written! I think your comments mirror many of those on the forum with Klipsch Heritage speakers in general, and Klipschorns in particular.

And worry not that some may have read your post with a nearly empty salt shaker in hand. The 'proverbial grain of salt' is meaningless in terms of what you know you heard and experienced for yourself; which in the end is ultimately the only thing that matters. I think Klipschorns sound very good with both hollow and solid state amplification, but I will say that my preference has been for tubes. I would also say, however, that my preference for tubes in no way gives me the right to criticize someone who does not share that opinion. The same should be true, I believe, for someone who prefers amplifiers with transistors. That this was your first experience with high efficiency horn speakers and tube amplifiers is, for me, one of the elements of your review that make it all the more important and vital. It's immediately obvious that you were extremely impressed!

edit: Forgot to mention I recently received (c/o the generosity of another forum member and friend) the Burmester CD mentioned above, and the "Poem of Chinese Drums" track is spectacular! The entire CD is very good, and contains probably some of the best recording quality of our entire collection.

Erik