ric Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 IF YOU WERE TO UPDATE YOUR RF7's WHAT WOULD YOU UPDATE THEM TOO??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 The Premier Reference line looks good, and the front three are three ways. Only time will tell if they sound as good as they look. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Before you change your RF-7's I would have DeanG rework your crossover networks which would cost alot less than new speakers and the results will amaze you. Haven't you read any of the testimonials from the RF-7 owners? What not make the excellent even better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 ric: MAYBE...if I had an endless supply of the green stuff.....I might try the THX ULTRA2s for my theater system.......MAYBE! But, from reading what others have written here, I would probably be dissappointed with the Ultra2's performance as compared with the RF-7s when I was just listening to music, which I do often. Otherwise, regarding movie-watching, I think the Ultra2s would probably be an upgrade. If I had a larger home...I'd be considering heritage equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 I went straight from RF-7s to AK-4 Klipschorns. I didn't see anything in between that I felt would offer a substantial enough improvement to warrant moving the RF-7s out of my system. I suppose a nice set of LaScalas and a couple of subs would have been nice as well, and I almost went in that direction -- I was just tired of fiddling with subs. A nice set of used Klipschorns with updated networks and shipping will run between $2700 and $3200. New ones can be had for around $6000. Naturally, I agree that if you want to hear the RF-7 at its best, it responds very well to a network parts upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 How does the upgrade work or what is the process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 If you PM or email me, I would be happy to send you the information you are asking about. Unless of course everyone here wants to hear my endless dribble -- in which case I would be equally happy to post it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkp Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 ---------------- On 9/15/2004 1:38:10 PM DeanG wrote: If you PM or email me, I would be happy to send you the information you are asking about. Unless of course everyone here wants to hear my endless dribble -- in which case I would be equally happy to post it here. ---------------- Dribble away, Deano!!! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 I agree with Frzninvt and Dean. I would first try working with what you have. The RF-7s respond very well to Dean's x-over modifications. I know from personal experience. Additionally, with your current system, you are not getting the full potential out of your RF-7s. Not even close. If you are not that impressed with what you are hearing, then you need to look at what is feeding your RF-7s. Start with your receiver and your CD transport. Besides, if you were go with Heritage or Legend instead, you would want to upgrade both of those anyway. So, I would start there first. Then, eventually, if you do not like the sound after upgrades - look elsewhere. As in straight to Klipschorns. The RF-7s are extremely revealing, and in my opinion, not a good musical match for receivers (few exceptions such as Rotel, B&K). It has taken me almost two years to get my RF-7, two-channel setup where I want it. But.... we are finally there. If you get your RF-7s set up correctly, you do not need to run any subs with them for music, and the soundstage, imaging, detail, bass response, and smoothness is incredible - even for redbook CDs. Hint: separates and incorporate tubes into the mix. Keep us posted. Carl. P.S. Dean - your new center x-over mod rework turned out great. Will post on that later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 I agree with the posts above. The RF-7s with upgraded crossovers AND a solid amp will make the RF-7s sound their best. The RF-7 woofer section has a big impedance dip which makes the RF-7s a demanding load for the vast majority of receivers. Even separate amps do not always do the best job with RF-7s. The separate amp needs to drive low impedance loads well. These suggestions are at least $12,000 less expensive for a home theater than my first suggestion which was to look at the Premier Reference line when it comes out. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Dean, I too would like to hear about your crossovers. Heard a lot of good things about them, but not sure how exactly they work, or how they're supposed to be installed (professionally etc.?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiob Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 RF7.5s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 ME TOO! ME TOO, DEAN! LET'S HEAR IT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myhamish Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Hey PhilMays "Running over the same old ground What have we found. The same old fears Wish you were here" great lyrics - here's my favourite PF lines - "I've looked over Jordan and I have seen that Things are not what they seem" watch these guys - they're going to make it big some day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Myhamish, I hope they do make it big one day! Have you heard Dark Side Of The Moon on SACD yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I can't really post from work anymore during the day, I'm just too busy -- and evenings are spent soldering and trying to catch up on things around the house. If I have any time left, I watch a movie or listen to music. Sooo, I just don't have the time I used to have to write out long posts, that end up more times than not just repeating things I've said at least 100 times over on 2-channel. The following link provides some good information, and saves me keystrokes. It's worth the time to go through most of it -- even if you don't understand it all. http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-e.php3 In short, I believe polypropylene capacitors using thicker film, with leads soldered to the foil, and wound using light to moderate tension -- are relatively transparent and grain free. I think Polyester (Mylar), as well as polypropylenes using the thinnest film available, and wound under high tension -- sound hashy at low listening levels, and harsh at high listening levels. Naturally, this applies to the HF circuit, and doesn't have the same degree of audible impact in the LF circuit. However, even an inexpensive polypropylene like a Solen or a Dayton, when put in place of a polyester type in the LF circuit -- gives marginal improvement to the bass. A good metallized polypropylene like the Auricap performs very closely to the higher quality film and foils (Hovlands, Thetas). To my ears, they are as just as transparent, yet don't have ESRs so low as to bring the signature unduly forward. The fact that they are actually affordable is an added plus. Using good caps makes good speakers sound great -- it's just that simple. As a side note, I don't believe the difference in losses between the various capacitors are the primary reason for the differences that are heard. The sound becomes unbridled, unfettered, more open, and cleaner. I don't believe reducing losses alone in a network explains that. Now, something specific to the RF-7 is the resistor mod I do which was given to me by Leo (Leok). This involves changing the resistance in the circuit that attenuates the horn's resonant peak. Taking the resistance from 2 ohms to 1.66 ohms drops the response at 3.5Khz by about 2db. This mod allows for better integration between the horn and cones, and removes audible ringing at high SPLs. Some have suggested that the resistor mod alone is responsible for the change in the sound, and that the capacitor change isn't doing much if anything. However, the initial mod to my RF-7s did not incorporate the resistor mod at all -- and only involved changing out the caps. Just changing the caps netted vast improvement. Also, consider that I've done quite a few Fortes, Chorus', KLFs, and KGs, and didn't change anything in these circuits except the caps -- and all the users of these have come back with very positive reports. Some have suggested that the tolerances are different, and so this explains the difference. O.K., the Auricap is +-10% as compared to the +-5% of the Mylars and epoxy coated oval polypropylenes Klipsch uses. Since this has been brought up, I've been measuring ALL of my caps before I use them -- and have YET to find one varying more than 4%. Also, my caps 'lean' the same way as the stock ones -- to the high side. WHATEVER one chooses to believe about what accounts for the change in sound -- not a single person disagrees that it's a vast improvment. I did this change-out on some RF-7s in front of a dozen people in Arkansas a while back, and all I'm going to say is that I didn't leave embarrassed. So how does this work? I start by sending an invoice in Notepad that looks like this: Well, sort of, in Notepad they actually line up. The parts values have been left off. The RF-7 is a current production model, and I have an agreement with Klipsch to be discreet. (2) XuF Auricap $027.00 (2) XuF Auricap $040.00 (4) XuF Auricap $060.00 (2) XuF Solen $012.00 (4) zOhm Mills Resistor $014.00 (2) zOhm Mills Resistor $007.00 (2) zOhm Mills Resistor $007.00 Tax and shipping on above $013.00 Return Shipping $020.00 Labor $125.00 Total $325.00 I get OEM pricing on Auricaps, and what I charge for them is basically what I pay, though I do round up to the nearest dollar. Return Shipping includes packing material and hassle factor. Labor is a little high, but I raised it to help pay for the cost of solder, screws, spacers, glue, and pain and suffering. I also send instructions: WHAT YOU DO: You will need a size 20 torx bit. Start by removing the horn, and loosening all of the screws. The horn will begin to protrude past the edges. As you loosen them the rest of the way, make sure you have a good hold on the horn (it's heavier than you think). Common sense prevails here, just take your time. Once you get the horn into your hand, reach behind it and disconnect the wires. They are "push down" spring loaded connectors. Just push down and pull the wires out. Set the horn down in a safe place. Now remove the four screws on the terminal cup at the back of the speaker. The entire assembly will come out (doesn't weigh much at all). Once in your hand, just reach in through the hole and disconnect the wires off of the woofers -- just "wiggle" them off. Wrap the wires around the whole deal, box and ship. When I get the boards, I desolder all of the parts using desoldering braid, removing the old solder, the parts, and adhesive. I then clean both sides of the boards with denatured alcohol. I drill all of the holes out just a bit bigger to accomodate the larger lead diameter of the Auricaps. I then lightly scuff up the bottom of the caps and top of the boards with 220 sandpaper before applying the hot melt to mount the caps. After all the parts are situated and set, I solder them in using WBT low lead, high silver content solder. When I'm done, I clean the boards again with denatured alcohol. The RF-7 (and RC-7) actually have two boards which sit on top of each other, and spacers are used between them. Because the caps I use are so much bigger, I can't use the stock spacers and screws. So, I use bigger/more spacers, and longer/bigger screws. I carefully drill out the plastic receivers in the terminals, put the crossovers back together, carefully pack, and ship. For me, it's one long evening, or two short ones to complete a set. Craig says I'm slow as molasses. I say I'm deliberate. Once the customer gets the crossovers back, they just do the reverse of what they did to get them out. 1) Feed the wires from the terminal cup into the speaker. 2) Attach the wires to the woofers. Its impossible to screw up here, because since the connectors for positive and negative are different sizes -- they only go on one way. Also, the wire lengths give you a good clue as to which goes to which driver. It's cake. 3) Attach a piece of tape to the tweeter wires, and stick the wires to the top brace. 4) Screw the terminal cup back in -- not tight, but snug. 5) Retrieve the horn, and take the tweeter wires (stuck to the brace right in front of you), and reattach to thedriver. The positve push-on is marked with red paint. 6) Screw the horn back in -- not tight, but snug. 7) Do other speaker. 8) Play music. All of this is really kind of cool, because they are involved in the process, and learn a thing or two on the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Excellent post DeanG! What is the typical time frame and what do you charge to do the RC-7 as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 The RC-7 is a pain in the rear, and takes almost as long for me to do as a pair of RF-7s. I charge $165 for that monster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 What is the typical time frame? I think I want to do the upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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