norcuron Posted July 28, 2001 Share Posted July 28, 2001 Hi, I am considering a sub and was wondering what you all think. I have the following Chorus II bought new about 11 years ago (Awesome) KLF-C7 Center KSP-S6 Surround Marantz sr-96 Carver TFM-45 running through sr-96 to chorus Yeah I know 375wpc is a little overkill Carver TLM-3600 10 Disc CD Player Panasonic DVD-A320 (built-in DD and DTS Decoder) JVC TD-VD661 Cassette (haven't used in years lol) I love this system but would like to get a good sub and eventually upgrade the receiver to SR14 or something similar. Also, do you think a new top CD player would sound much different than my 10 year old Carver?Thanks for info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orthj Posted July 28, 2001 Share Posted July 28, 2001 Simply put, PARADIGM PW-2200. I have owned Forte IIs for six years and just recently (3 mo ago) got this sub and it thrills me to death! Better then the MK MX90 and MK MX200 that I've owned/lived with, better than those Carver 'cubes', better than any current Klipsch (we'll see about the new Klipsch this autumn), better than most (all?) Velodyne. I cannot say enough about it. The best thing is that you can own 2 of them for the same price as many other SINGLE 'good' subs form other companies. A week ago a guy was selling the PW-2200's big brother, the PW-2500 (15", 16 Hz) on Audiogon.com for $650...You can get a new PW-2200 for 6-700 (they no longer produce the PW-2500). Hope this helps, J. ------------------ James D. Orth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo-Jo Posted July 28, 2001 Share Posted July 28, 2001 Well, I'm not an expert on matching subs with systems or anything, but I highly recommend the Velodyne HGS series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMIN Posted July 28, 2001 Share Posted July 28, 2001 I have to agree with the Velodyne HGS subs. I just sold an HGS 12 and I liked it alot but it has been replaced with a Paradigm PW2200 and I like that one even more and it was less then half as much. Simply put if you want to look at the terrific Velodyne go for the HGS 15" or 18". The Paradigm Pw2200 ($800 list)has the same output above 20 HZ as the HGS 15 and some great peaks too. Now for some sub of subs 1. $1575 SVS CS-Ultra with a 1000 watt amp or 2. $2500-$3000?? Velodyne HGS 18" with a peak of 3000 watts. I only put the Velodyne as 2nd due to price even though the Ultra should out do the Vel in output by a slight margin. Bang for buck the PW2200 can't be outperformed for the dollar from anyone as far as I have seen. I just bought one from a local dealer for $599 brand new! If you must pay list for the Paradigm then you might also look at the SVS 20-31 w/700 watt amp $850 delivered and it does have more output then the 2200 but only by a 1db or 2 across the board. This message has been edited by RWMIN on 07-29-2001 at 06:36 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beday00 Posted July 29, 2001 Share Posted July 29, 2001 i haven't heard most of the subs out there.... but the svs subs look pretty amazing http://www.svsubwoofers.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oogins Posted July 29, 2001 Share Posted July 29, 2001 Speaking of HGS subs, does anyone think the HGS-10 will go well with the quintets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted July 29, 2001 Share Posted July 29, 2001 I believe in Santa Claus (boomer 911?) and the Easter Bunny (JMON?)... but I have a little problem with believing your analogy, RWMIN. Granted an TWO Ultras plus a 1,000 watt amp come up to $2,500 and that they should be held accountable to that price point. But when a fussy independent reviewer doesn't find a Paradigm 2200 coming any closer to a SINGLE run-of-the-SVS-mill 20-39 CS... let alone trying to compare it with a PAIR of Ultras driven by a Samson S1000... it's time to review the situation. Tom Vodhanel, on the Powered Subwoofer section praised the 2200 and then added... "And the pw2200 and the 20-39cs would both (be) reviewed by Nousaine. 20hz---pw2200/84dB---20-39/91dB 25hz---pw2200/104dB--20-39/105.8dB 25-63hz(avg)---pw2200/108---20-39/109.5 So from 25hz and up...the 20-39 had a dB or two more output. But at 20hz, the 20-39 had 7dBs(or about the same amount of clean output as 2 of the pw2200s)." Not only do the numbers not add up, if you ever get to try an SVS, you will find the ear test fails too. My mother's favorite movie is "The Sound of Music" recorded in Dolby Digital 4.0... but my Yamaha RX-V3000 translates that as 6.1... and the Twin Ultras bring out the bass like nothing I have ever heard... particularly the organ part... the Ultras really rumbled on those bottom dwelling notes. Now, lest we get the Mystery Guest out of sorts, let me say that it is not my attention to be hostile. If your ears say that Paradigm is the one, RWMIN, that's fine with me... 'cause YOUR ears should rule YOUR system! And, as I have said on many posts, the 2200 is a wail of a sub... but it just can't BANG with a lesser SVS sub's kick... and as long as the value of an Ultra BUCK is being measured in "unheard speculation"... the point is, at best, moot to boot. In just about any field of high dollar personal preference, there are defining points that may seem small to the uninitiated. The Ultra tubes have refinements that make an SVS 20-39 a distant second best... custom 50% thicker tube & endcaps, high performance tuned triple ports, 97oz strontium ferrite magnet on an extremely quick, custom manufactured, ("bottomless" so far) 12" woofer... Plus, an Ultra tube can outperform a standard SVS 20-39 tube by 7.5dB at 20Hz! Add that to the difference between a standard SVS 20-39 tube and a Paradigm... and then you add a second Ultra tube plus a "dead quiet" 1,000 watt amp... well, it brings to mind my racing days when my beloved Jags were just flat outclassed by an in-tune Ferrari. Of course, believe it or not, keeping a Ferrari in that kind of tune costs more than Twin Ultras... and my jags probably finished more races! It might be said that I had "more bang for my road racing buck" but a bottom line "victory" can be very hollow feeling for a finish line kind of guy... and my past wasn't near as "chequered" as I might have hoped. I've owned some really great VW's too... and they got me from point "A" to point "B"... maybe not at the same pace or style... but they did get me there... and provided an extra measure of FUN in the bargain. Buying an SVS is like buying a piece of Monarch gear... or a Heritage class horn loaded speaker... your bringing your ears to the edge of "world class" sound at bargain basement rates... and that is just not the same "bang for the buck" that even a "90% fantastic" sub buys. Just think, before lasers started reading discs, there just wasn't that much programming in the first and second octave... and there still isn't as much as we "bottom dwellers" would like... but what there is stirs my soul... where "one-upsmanship" has no standing... there is nothing quite like a classic "Klipsch Sound" building on a "world class" subterranean basement! HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-29-2001 at 08:02 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montigue Posted July 29, 2001 Share Posted July 29, 2001 Tom Vodhanel, on the Powered Subwoofer section praised the 2200 and then added... "And the pw2200 and the 20-39cs would both (be) reviewed by Nousaine.HornEd: Who or what is Nousaine? when will this review come out? Monty This message has been edited by montigue on 07-29-2001 at 01:56 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted July 29, 2001 Share Posted July 29, 2001 that would be tom nousaine. the "ace of bass" reviewer http://www.svsubwoofers.com/TSSTNREVIEW.htm ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z1 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted July 29, 2001 Share Posted July 29, 2001 Thanks for adding the link, Boa... I was a little "consricted" for time when I wrote the above post... and it came off a bit harsh. Sorry, RWMIN, what I meant to say just didn't make it out of my fingers... So, in the "Mystery Guest Spirit"... I've "tweaked" it some and hope that it now represents a rising tide that can float all our boats... like the "Joy of Klipsch" reflected by BOOMER and legendary reproductions by JMON. So, now that I have Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny in my comfort zone, I'm going to bump it up and grind out some low down organ tunes and forget about bucks, bangs & automobiles. HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMIN Posted July 29, 2001 Share Posted July 29, 2001 TV has made a mistake regarding the output at 20 HZ with the PW 2200. He originally posted the data on 12-19-2000 (I printed it out). TV's current data is either a typo, mistake or a different review. The data listed above by HornEd is pretty much a quote from TV from another thread regarding the 2200 20 hz output. The correct output of the Paradigm PW2200 "WAS" (as referred to by me) 107.4 / 20HZ 91 (the same as the 20-39 cs @ 20 HZ) TV is using Tom Nousaines data. Mr. Nousaines review and specs listed above can be read by all as they are currently posted at Paradigm's web site in a review done for "Sound and Vision" by "NOUSAINE". http://www.paradigm.ca/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/PReviews/PReviewsIndex.html This message has been edited by RWMIN on 07-29-2001 at 10:00 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMIN Posted July 29, 2001 Share Posted July 29, 2001 Perhaps TV is posting some updated information and the past review is moot. If that's the case then please let me know TV as my PW2200 will be returned in no time for a better sub, SVS 20-39 or CS-ultra! HornEd I get the impression that somehow I have made you feel like I don't think the SVS is as good as it is. The only thing I have ever done regarding SVS, Paradigm and Velodyne was post info on experience or by specification only as I have not had the pleasure to experience an SVS first hand but I have experienced the Velodyne HGS 12, Klipsch LF 10's and now the Paradigm PW 2200. Again HORNED I have NEVER compared the PW 2200 to a SVS CS-ULTRA! The are in a different league all together BUT the PW2200 DOES COMPARE to the SVS CS 20-39 in SPECS! NOW I have given the best praise I know of regarding the CS Ultra by comparing it to the incredible HGS 18. In fact a single SVS CS-Ultra can produce the same and maybe just slightly MORE output then the HGS 18 and it costs HALF as much $1575 VS $3000! Now if you want to spend as much on a pair of SVS CS-Ultra as on ONE Velodyne HGS 18" you can get as much bass as more then 2 HGS 18" at the same price point. Also the SVS is doing this with only a 12" WOOFER compared to the Vel w/an 18" woofer and a more powerful amp! Is this a clear enough praise for SVS? For the PW2200 and the SVS CS 20-31 given the actual specs ARE so close the price of $599 for the PW and the price of $850 for the SVS made the 0-2 DB advantage of the SVS is not worthy of my extra $250! The subs DO IN FACT have the same 20 HZ output! (A more current review put the PW 2200 @84 DB 20 HZ, down from a previous review of 91 @ 20 hz, both reviews are from Nousaine) I did compare the PW 2200's OUTPUT to that of a Velodyne HGS 15". Praise be to Paradigm for being able to compare to the output of the HGS 15" with their $800 12" sub! NOW, as previously stated elsewhere, If I had to pay full price for the PW2200 ($800 plus tax) I would have a DO recommend to others that they buy the sub with more BANG, (a whopping 0-2 db 20 hz and up)THE SVS CS 20-39 @$850 delivered! Is the PW2200 "my great sub", H*** NO. Is it the best sub for less then $1000, it is surely one of few IN THAT PRICE RANGE WITH THAT KIND OF BASS!!! Forgive me for trying to cover a price range as one was never given. As you may clearly see, now that I parted the above post, I recommended the $1575 CS-Ultra over the $2500-$3000 Velodyne HGS 18". CLEAR? This message has been edited by RWMIN on 08-01-2001 at 10:56 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMIN Posted July 29, 2001 Share Posted July 29, 2001 According to TV the PW 2200 has been RE-REVIEWED and the current specs are correct at 84 db 20 hz. That is really some change in performance. I will see if I can return the PW 2200 as 84 DB 20 HZ just doesn't do it when the SVS can do a lot more (91 @ 20) for just a couple hundred more then I have already spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 Sorry RWMIN, I took the weekend pretty much off from the computer... I have a laptop that runs through a cell phone for trips... but the Northern California Renaissance Pleasure Faire is gearing up and this year I have added my 93 year-old mother to the participant mix. She is taking the apprentice classes in Elizabethan speech, etc. but has been mercifully allowed by the costume authorities to forgo the bulging bodice business. On the Paradigm issue, I apologize for partially misconstruing your intent. I checked on the Paradigm link you provided and the Nousaine review used the same number as TV did in his post... so it appears there is no typo. Like many others, I have reviewed many subs in high end shops and friends homes... sometimes with my trusty SPL meter. My primary focus is always on the Klipsch part of the HT/Music equation but the handling of the long bass waves to augment the "Klipsch Sound" has been (up until now) a constant shuffle source in the perpetual rig upgrade dance. At best, the subwoofer issue is a thorny one... full of tradeoffs... the Paradigm 2200 is still a great performer in my book and well worth the bang for the buck. I agree with TV in that its higher ranges seem improved... but the tradeoff is diminished capacity in the lower ranges. I think, RWMIN, you will find that is a fairly standard approach design engineers take for most subwoofers. No one subwoofer is likely to be all things to any one person.... and with position, room acoustics, competing waves from other speakers, the neighbors "thump tolerance", etcetera, getting it "right" is no easy task when you spend three grand (USD) and far more so at less than a grand (USD). Paradigm, Velo 18" HGS and, particularly, REL have all been favorites of mine in the past. It is hard to knock products that I have enjoyed over the years... and so that is not my intent. Oh, yes, and there was a 15" floor-firing sub with a dear-departed DBX label that once rocked for me in a showroom installation years ago... and that really set a low range "bang for the buck" baseline when DAK (if fading memory serves) sold it out. I think its great that various sub advocates speak up for what their ears prefer... and how these favorite subs can be set up to maximize the Klipsch experience. I just was unexpectedly "blown away" by what these Twin SVS Ultras can do across the board in an area where "blow away" achievements are hard to come by... and after all, it's just one ear-challenged, blown-away, old geezer's opinion. Now, what really would be helpful if you could tell me how I can sneak this rig into the Renaissance Faire and blast out some really "olde but kewl" sounds. HornEd ------------------ "Where Legends Live! Klipsch Powered HT" FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30 Center, KLF 30 Mains, KLF 10 Front Effects BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30 L&R Side/Surrounds, KLF 30 Rear Effects LARGE MOUTH BASS: Twin SVS CS-Ultra sub with Samson Megawatt Amp SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver and such... Tweakin' On! 2-Channel Music Respite Room ala Cornwall under construction... This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-30-2001 at 09:45 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drewzter Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 quote: Originally posted by HornEd: Oh, yes, and there was a 15" floor-firing sub with a dear-departed DBX label that once rocked for me in a showroom installation years ago... and that really set a low range "bang for the buck" baseline when DAK (if fading memory serves) sold it out. Ah, yes, were you also once a DAKonian, HornEd? How many others are here, I wonder? I consider myself to be very fortunate enough to have had a summer job back in 1990 that allowed me to purchase a pair of dbx Soundfield V's from the beloved mail-order electronics king, Drew Allen Kaplan... what a steal! These speakers are still kicking major booty after 11 years... not a single problem with them whatsoever. And bass down to 24Hz with the 15" monsters... pretty much unbeatable sound for the price ($300/pr - $1900 msrp) even today! I really don't have any need for an external sub with these babies, but I'll probably have one some day. That, or powered towers. Any way, I won't blow on. It's always neat to run into people that have heard of, perhaps even bought from, DAK. My brother introduced me to the magazine way back in the 80's, and he purchased a pair of the BSR 5-way towers which are basically the same thing as the dbx's (dbx bought BSR soon after he bought his speakers). I found out just 2 days ago that Drew is still around... I was looking for open domain names, and punched in drew.com, and whadya know... it's Drew Kaplan's page! Go to www.dak2000.com and you'll see a picture of the Soundfield V's on the front cover of one of his old catalogs (DAK 1)... btw, I bet that dbx sub ROCKED, HornEd... any chance I could find one of those for sale somewhere? ------------------ Front: dbx Soundfield V - 15" woofer, 8" mid, ribbon tweet, 3.25" mid & dome tweet on top Center: KLF C7 Rear Surround: Polk f/x bipole/dipole Amp: Yamaha RX-V990 100x3; 25x2 DVD: Yamaha DVD S795 (built-in DD Processor) CD: Yamaha CDC 575 5-Disc VCR: Toshiba M752 6-head TV: Mitsubishi 40" Tube DirecTV Sony Playstation w/ s-vid & RCA to V990 for awesome gaming picture & sound! This message has been edited by drewzter on 07-30-2001 at 01:42 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 Horn Ed, why, oh why is Europe so far away from the US??? ] The more often I read you praising the Ultras the more I feel I am really missing out on something!!! Anyway, did you notice that SVS has a powered version of the Ultras somewhere up their sleeves? Well, that should be really something for people who want to use a sub not in a HT but 'only' a two channel set-up. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted July 30, 2001 Share Posted July 30, 2001 You bet... drewster... I built that 15" dbx subwoofer into a heavy podium with special bottom vents so it really did a number on the audience. I don't remember what I paid for it but it seems it was less than $300 and get this... the top sound guys for Hard Rock Cafes came in with the then owner (I was interested in buying his Dallas penthouse when he sold Hard Rock to a PLC) and they were so rocked that they thought I had put $40k into the theater sound system. Actually, I had only put in about $2,400 and some home grown sound engineering. But, that dbx went a long way to making it happen! The really odd thing was that I had picked up a 2 for 1 deal on some RS Olympus 15" woofer three-ways ($500 the pair) to replace some Altec Lansing theater speakers ($3,500 each) that I didn't like. I was going to get a "feel" for the acoustics and then replace the Olympus mains with some "real" speakers. Well, when they fooled the Hard Rock experts... I went back to that Royal (UT Football Coach) Maxim of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and left the cheap speakers in until I sold the showroom five years later! HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomer9911 Posted August 1, 2001 Share Posted August 1, 2001 I will say, being a Heritage Series owner and having "NO" sub system I value the opinions of the Klipsch BB. HornEd and Boa12 are men to ask! Sorry guys, just a little plug. I have switched in ideas from the Bagends, Sunfire,REF, to the "now" SVS system, and hopefully the "new" RSW15 series. As well the KEFTDM45B. I need something to "take over my lows" and cut my horns out and take over(highpass). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted August 8, 2001 Share Posted August 8, 2001 I'll agree with everyone who says the PW2200 is a great sub. I added that unit to my 7-ch system and it keeps up great with both movies and music and does quite well matching with my Forte IIs. Granted, I need to review these reviews and check the new(?) dB numbers, but I sure can't complain with the system. I bought the PW2200 abour 18 months ago and have loved it from day one. However, more and more that I hear/read about SVS, makes me wonder what (i am sure it's not "if") I'm missing. Right now, I can't justify dropping that money into the system. Someday, maybe...but then maybe I'll also get a pair of Khorns. However, you'll never pry my Forte IIs from my hands!! jhawk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted August 8, 2001 Share Posted August 8, 2001 Hey, jhawk, the PW2200 IS a great little subwoofer that can provide more pure entertainment level than many subs that are somewhat bigger and a whole lot more expensive. Just because some of us have subwoofer systems that exceed Dolby's minimum Reference Level of 121dB and have the range to reach into the first octave doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of sound enjoyment happens above the second octave. If you enjoy what you have, that's great. But, if you have the yen to find the rest of the sound on your DVD's... set your sights for Reference Level SPL's and all the tonal precision you can get for a matched pair of quality subs with at least 700 watts to push them and be prepared to spend at least $2-3,000. Remember, it takes double the capacity to raise the SPL's by 6db... and some fanatics put more than two subs in a single corner. So far, I am at two and just a shade over minimum Reference Level anywhere in my sweetspot. And, I have to admit, before it got this awesome, it was still a wonderful Klipsch experience... and that's what really counts... having happy ears... and enough beans left over to take care of life's other necessities. HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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