Wouldn't believe it had I not heard it for myself!

[unimorpheus]

Well after a month of listening to the RF-5s I had some time over the weekend and decided to try this bi-wire thing. Even at respectfull "evening" listening levels I can hear a difference in performance. Even at a low listening level I have noticed much fuller bass from the RFs. Makes for a smother transition to the RSW. Can't wait for daylight when I can get a little more volume behind the Rfs for a full listening test. I think it is worth taking a day off. Now I just have to figure out why this makes such a difference.

[CECAA850]

What guage were your wires in your original set up, and how long was the run? Did you change wire brands or just double what you originally had? Carl

[unimorpheus]

I am using Monster Cable XP clear jacket w/ Monster Quick Lock banana connectors on the speaker end and Phillips screw bound banana connectors at the receiver end. The Phillips connectors allow me to secure the dual wire assembly rather easily. This is the same setup I was using with the non bi-wire layout except I was using Monster twist crimp angle pins at the receiver end. I don't know the gauge of the XP wire but I suspect it is somewhere around 16 gauge. The RF-5s are on a 12' run and the RC-7 is on a 4' run.

[Deang]

You CANNOT smoke Crack while doing these listening tests.

[unimorpheus]

Once again another example of the high level of dialog one can find in this forum.

[J.4knee]

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On 10/11/2004 2:52:27 AM unimorpheus wrote:

Now I just have to figure out why this makes such a difference.

----------------

Your imagination.

[MrMcGoo]

Bi-wiring can help when it lowers resistance through the use of bigger wire. If resistance is not lowered, I doubt that there is any significant benefit.

Bill

[CECAA850]

According to the Ref-5 owners manual, bi-wiring is recommended as it gives improved bass response, imaging and detail. As 16 guage is the minimum thickness to drive those speakers, doubling it may help improve their performance. If Klipsch says it, it must be so? No? Carl

[Dylanl]

I originally biwired & biamped my RF7's. Did not seem to hear much from Bi-wire but did from Bi-amp.

[colterphoto1]

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On 10/11/2004 9:54:01 PM DeanG wrote:

You CANNOT smoke Crack while doing these listening tests.

----------------

yer killin me Dean! Bout spit out my breakfast when reading your post.

[hwatkins]

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On 10/11/2004 9:54:01 PM DeanG wrote:

You CANNOT smoke Crack while doing these listening tests.

----------------

Uh Oh - Please disregard any of my previous listening tests/reviews.

I wish I had known the rules earlier....

[Deang]

Wow, Uni got upset with me --

Maybe we should start a new Website featuring "Audio Chemical Tweaks".

System too harsh -- drink a fifth.

To laid back -- fire up a doob.

No imagaing -- drop a hit of acid.

[PhilMays]

OK...So if I smoke crack my system will sound better? That is TWEAKIN!

Kidding aside...I do feel my bass response is tighter by bi-wiring, however, I could not tell in the mids or highs at all.

When you get to a certain point, most upgrades are marginal to the quality of sound at best (Not talking about your upgrades DeanG).

[J.4knee]

No for just plain TWEAKIN you need to use Crystal Meth

[JJkizak]

I can see where bi-amping would make a difference but bi-wiring? No-way.

JJK

[D-MAN]

Bi-wires add quite a bit of increase to the effective diameter and number of wire strands in a given circuit, typically almost double that of a a single pair.

That reduces resistance which promotes more efficient current flow. That is the effect that you're hearing.

DM

[Dylanl]

D-man do you really think it makes that much difference on a run that short? You are only talking a few feet. I used to be a big believer in larger gauge wire, more strands, bi-wire theory, but, as of late I am really starting to question the whole idea. I can see it however if you are talking about some sort of distance & thin gauge. In taking apart my Khorn drivers and seeing the small strands on the voice coil really brought things into perspective, at least for me. I am starting to see why Paul Klipsch used lamp cord.

I want to believe but I have never seen any hard proof on this issue.

[Deang]

PK didn't use "lamp cord". The wire is actually stranded, tinned copper. If you want get goofy about it all, it's actually a good thing to use since tin isn't as conductive as copper -- so the signal doesn't ride on the outside of the wire.

[D-MAN]

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On 10/12/2004 2:16:14 PM Dylanl wrote:

D-man do you really think it makes that much difference on a run that short? You are only talking a few feet. I used to be a big believer in larger gauge wire, more strands, bi-wire theory, but, as of late I am really starting to question the whole idea. I can see it however if you are talking about some sort of distance & thin gauge. In taking apart my Khorn drivers and seeing the small strands on the voice coil really brought things into perspective, at least for me. I am starting to see why Paul Klipsch used lamp cord.

I want to believe but I have never seen any hard proof on this issue.

----------------

Basically, you're asking whether a wire is just a wire?

My position is that wire is an important and vital part of the signal path and can be optimised for that purpose.

The absolute bottom line is that the answer can only be determined by yourself. You will not be able to come to a conclusion by talking about it, you have to experience the available differences yourself. That means trying it for yourself on your gear that you are familiar with the sound and can tell if there is a difference or not. Listening to demos on other peoples gear can help, but the familiarity with your own system should be your "reference" point when judging results. Try it for yourself.

But as far as talking about it, here's my assessment:

You've seen many posts concerning the recommended gauge of wire to use (12 seems to be used alot). Large dia. wire is used to transmit large current, of course. The analogy of water in a pipe is an apt example: if the pipe is too small, how much volume can you get through it? if the pressure behind it (voltage) cannot be increased (as let's say the amplifier (pump) is fixed at a constant amount ), as it only produces a certain amount of water at the end of the pipe. The pipe itself is restricting the flow of water, and a wire does exactly the same thing electrically. That restriction to flow results in heat which is what enables wire fuses to blow and protect circuits from damage. It's just a small wire of a particular current rating. You will note that consumer-level audio cabling is not usually rated for current/voltage (wattage) limitations. But they also don;t use it for plugging into AC for the most part. That takes a different rated cable, of course. Hence the famous "zip" cord in question. Just because AC cable can handle larger values of wattage (P=IE), it doesn't mean that it can handle lower amounts of varying frequency signals without coloration due to differences in metalurgy and production.

Different metals display a different conductivity value. Alloys are typically used in almost all wiring today, but the best performance SHOULD be achieved with the purest metal and that my preference (in descending order) is silver followed by copper and then gold. The number of lead solder joints in the circuit should be kept to a minimum (lead is rated at about half the conductivity of copper). I therefore recommend unterminated speaker cables.

Where current flows on the OUTSIDE surface (a few molocules thick) of the wire more efficiently than through the core of the wire, this is referred to as the skin effect. The more OUTSIDE skin of a wire that is available for current flow, the less resistance effects the current flow. The length of the run will also have an influence on the resistance (actually reactance based on inductance, resistance, and capacitance) due to current flow. This only happens when current is flowing through the wire. Reversing polarities of the current flow also cause reactance to change as the magnetic fields colapse or expand. There is the inherent conductivity of the metalurgy used. The "oxigen-free" copper is highly touted just about everywhere, but I think that its the purity of the metal rather than some other manufacturing technique that really matters. Stranding configurations are also important, but mostly I think that the metalugy is the most important.

There is no technical difference between bi-wiring or running 2 parallel sets of the same wire cables. Bigger cable diameter and strand number increases the surface area of the wire(s) and the surface is where the current travels most efficiently (skin effect). Short runs are better than long runs, as with all wiring. Each side should be an equal length. I have found that as short of run as 2" of 6 Ga. wire to effect the performance of a crossover, for instance.

So the effects can be noticable in short runs, too.

The more surface area, the less resistance. Many little strands is also better in providing surface area than a large diameter single conductor. So 2 runs is better than one, three better than 2, etc. to the point of diminishing returns.

I prefer silver interconnects, and use 12 Ga. copper for the speaker runs.

Hope this helps.

DM

[D-MAN]

One more thing, as if I haven't blabbered enough already, but DO NOT CONFUSE the VOICE COIL with CONNECTING WIRE (although it is technically a wire). It is a MOTOR WINDING, it does NOT MAKE NOISE!!!

The point that I am making is that the VC winding has several 10's of yards in length and is very tiny dia. wire. It acts as a motor coil and a motor coil ONLY.

The trick is GETTING THE SIGNAL-MODULATED CURRENT FROM THE AMP TO THE VOICE COIL where the rubber meats the road. The voice coil has LITTLE to do with (shall I say it?) with the transmission of current except to convert the current to motion. The idea is to get the most current from the amp to the VC with as little loss as possible.

DM