maxg Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 That is a firmly tongue in cheek title - apologies to anyone that might be remotely offended in advance, in full and in writing. Now - one with the subject. The Athens audio /video show is on as I write - all new exciting technologies and scantily clad maidens promising Nirvana behind the curtain. this is not the high end show - that will be at the end of next month. Sadly every curtain housed a home cinema system and no bed - -but there you go. Anyway - Lots of interesting stuff about - Pioneer with a stand you could play football in, half the size of the Sony stand, Tosh, Yamaha, blah blah balh - everyone on earth except Denon (no idea why). Is there realy such a huge marketplace for $4000+ flat TVs? DVd burners? Now I burn the odd DVD on the PC - but there a 5 different ones on the Pioneer stand alone. Portable DVD players - is there anyone who doesnt have one - manufacturer that is - is there anyone you know with one - customer that is? Amonst the big names - some very new names (to me anyway). WTF is CAV??? Well tis a Chinese audio maker - with 150 wpc and 200 wpc amps that look like baby Krells - FOR $1000 EACH or thereabouts. The integrated sporting, amongst other things an MM/MC phono stage no less. And they make rather odd speakers in 2 or 3 boxes. Box 1 houses the tweeter and the midrange - box 2 the woofer (10 or 12 inch) and the option box 3 - another woofer (again 10 or 12 inch). Hard to assess the sound with the noise of war all around (and I still dont know what movie it is - looked a bit like Pearl Harbour but I guess that is a bit old to still be going around here) but there was plenty of volume. Speakers rated at 88dB for the 10 and 89 for the 12 - low by our standards but we did not seem to be lacking with the 150 watter driving it. Anyway pricing similar to the amps - if you buy the 12 incher and the extra 12 inch woofer to go with it you end up with a speaker sinmilar in size to the old KLF30 and a bill of around $1750 - less 25% for orders at the show. That has got to be cheap even by US standards. I will go to listen to these after the show at the company's showroom and report back if they are indeed any good - I have a sneaking suspicion they might be but we will see. Then there were the chinese DVD players - bazillions of them - all seemingly less than $80, and the CD players (more expensive - odd when you think about it), preamps, amps, tubes, SS probably digital too - I didnt see. Chinese TVs? video recorders (they still sell them apparently) and even DVD recorders. Amongst this Oriental tide - Tsakiridis showing off their new designs (the old look of "the best sound ever made for dead people" - i.e. coffins with tubes on top is out - in is sleek metal chasis and delicate wooden side panels - I am promised their site will be updated soon. Other Greek names - wow - there is Comet (my supplier of the cheapo DVD player) with new cheapo DVd players, new DVD burners, new flat panel TV's, new portable DVD players.... Do you get the idea that this industry is banking a lot on people burning DVd to watch on thin screens? From what I saw today thin TVs will cost the same as DVD players do today in a couple of years as suppliers try to offload the biggest stiock glut in history. The only thing that will be cheaper will be DVD burners. What else? MP3 on everything - there was a fridge that played MP3 for crying out loud. At least all but 2 of the new DVD players I tried played MP3 on DVD. Good news for me - if noone else. surprises: 1. A turntable from Marantz!! Striking similarity to the Clearaudio baby TT (Emotion) - but 650 euros more expensive. Different feet on the unit - but I guess there must be more than that for 650. 2.I forgot - there were 2 items and I cant for the life of me remember what the second one was - oh yes - the Sonus Faber big speaker with the pompous name and the $30,000 price tag was there - why I have no idea - it wasnt connected to anything - very pretty - I hope they will have it running for the High End show. Rumour has it the high end show might just have a pair of Avantgard Trios and a basshorn to show off - will phot that if it happens. That all for now folks - I wonder if this post makes and sense (I am fighting off my daughter as I type).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Yes Max, the Chinese are indeed coming (or South Koreans if I include my new microwave ) and if you consider either Cayin amps or Valve Art tubes (just two examples I am kind of familiar with) there is no reason not to expect some interesting items coming to our living rooms....and I am waiting for an affordable flat screen TV (I guess prices will come down over here with the football worldcup in 2006!) and a DVD burner to get rid of my video tapes (of course to have more space for CDs ). Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I have news for ya, the chinese are here. More audio and video products are now manufactured in China then in all other o****ries combined (I cannot remember where I read that stat, think it was on yahoo news...) and the quality is climbing very fast, especially since many focus on their strategic advantages in metalwork and labor while sourcing design (industrial and electronic) from the developed world the innards from top chip, driver, cap and pot manufacturers in the developed world. Expect to see more and more and less and less private label customers ecide to hide the "made in china" connections and as the chinese move up the food chain and begin to direct market their own wares in the USA (like the two amp mentioned above)...regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheis Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I just returned a Denon AVR-1804 mainly because it sounded like crap AND it was made in CHINA. It's getting almost impossible to avoid the dreaded "Made in China" label. Rant: I just bought a top-of-the-line IBM Thinkpad T42 online and when it arrived I discover that it too was made in CHINA. The hard drive failed within three weeks. I'm not naive, I know that computer components come from all over the place, but I thought that I was buying a product that was at least put together and QC'd in the USA. No offense intended, but personally, I prefer that my high tech products come from a country where electricity is not a novelty to a large percentage of the population. I guess in the corporate rush to the bottom that's too much to ask. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Buy a Jean Francois Lessard amp. Made by hand in Quebec City. Or better yet. Build one of his designs with an "iron kit". Made in ... _______________________________ Music Hall MMF-7 Turntable w/ Goldring Eroica H MC Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CDP with 24 bit/192 KHz Upsampling Wright Sound WPP-100C Phono Stage JF Lessard Pantheon 6SN7 SRPP Preamp w/ RCA 5R4GY & Sylvania 6SN7 JF Lessard Horus Parafeed Cobalt 2A3 Monoblocks w/ Tung Sol 5687 & AVVT 2A3 1976 KCBR Klipschorns with ALK Crossovers Gear Online: Two Channel & Home Theater Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 i think max that you were looking at the stratavarious, i auditioned 1 today at my local listenup audio, and i have to say they are a sweet speakeri was kinda a-b them against the b&w 800'S and i have to say the sonus were a smoother more detailed speaker, if there really is such a thing, and the price tag here in denver is 40,000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Granted, I've never been overly impressed with components made in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea, etc., especially from name-brand manufactures like Denon, Adcom, harman/kardon, AMC, Monster Power...even my new 24/196 CD player from the British firm Cambridge Audio (azur 640C) was built in mainland China! But on some components, quality control has improved quite alot, and I'm very impressed with my handbuilt BEZ tube amp/preamp from Hong Kong! Nowadays China is a force to be reckoned with, and like it or not, they're here! Fifty years ago, Japanese components were considered junk, and now look at 'em! Just my two cents... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Almost by definition, high-end seeks to surpass the common, and discover the uncommon, the rare, the special, the unusual, the expensive, even the odd. It is often called "esoteric audio." Stamp collectors are not much interested in today's 37-cent issue. Mark, You've given me some good ideas (which I will give back to you right now). Perhaps your most esoteric customers might go for the idea of using rare vintage stamps for mailing their Blueberries or Peaches? Packing material made from exquisitely crumpled turn-of-the-century newsprint (100% rag, of course), or mink? Leather shipping crate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Hello: I do not wish to offend pro-Chinese, BUT, the leaders of the Country have spoke openly against the U.S.. Wages are slave labor low. I do not mind Canadian, Greek, Japanese etc. Units as long as the leaders AND their people can show some support for us. That said, I also have a problem IN the U.S. that when School budgets must be cut, arts, music, librarians are the first to go. After that, teachers. Very seldom do you ever hear of the Administrations and District Administators taking pay cuts. How does anyone continue to expect the U.S. to be a leading edge in technology? We have dumbing down, passing because the teachers are afraid to flunk a student. Then we have suits against Bill Gates. Yes, there were abuses of licensing, but what message does that send to the average person? Money for sports in schools, absurd pro salaries, questionable teacher, Police and Fire fighter salaries, but cuts in all of the other areas. I fault U.S. Companies sending jobs to China. Outsourcing is bull. I'll stop before I'm too irritated. But I did read one noteworthy quote - how many Countries sent aid to the U.S. when we had the Twin Towers demolished or when we had the Hurricanes? dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 ---------------- On 10/24/2004 9:36:42 AM dodger wrote: ..."I fault U.S. Companies sending jobs to China. Outsourcing is bull." ---------------- I agree. It sucks when hard working Americans lose their jobs because their employer doesn't want to pay their overtime, healthcare, and other full time benefits, so they close down their American factories and outsource to China or a third-world country where labor is dirt cheap and anyone will work for peanuts! But it's not just American manufacturers that do this, i.e.: Japanese firm Nakamichi builds in the Philippeans, British firms AMC and Cambridge Audio build in Taiwan and China respectively, etc. In today's global economy, I suppose this is unavoidable. Everyone's out to save a buck, no matter where they're from, and if honest working, skilled employees lose out to slave labor from a foreign country, what can be done about it? I hate it just as much as you do, but what can we do to keep American jobs in America? Not buy from these American manufacturers who outsource their assembly plants in third-world nations? That's awfully hard to do nowadays. From clothes to clocks and watches, cameras, silverware, kitchen appliances, hand tools, to the very computer you're using right now...how many of these US companies have their products assembled elsewhere with cheap labor? There are a few exceptions to the rule, but unfortunantly they're far and few between (a minority today). And also a rareity, but growing number of overseas high-end audio manufacturers from Japan and China are making their way to these shores, i.e.: Yamamoto Sound Craft, WAVAC Audio Lab, Cayin, Almarro, Shanling, Niro, Sakuma, Opera Audio, Dared, Reimyo, Sun Audio, etc. If they're all well built and great sounding, then does it really matter where they come from? Just my opinion, natch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 24, 2004 Author Share Posted October 24, 2004 Some interesting replies - a few I do not think I agree with, but interesting all the same. I entitled the thread as I did simply because I see the redefinition of value within the audio realm - and it is the chinese that are doing it. More interestingly the High end suppliers over here are actually pleased - not upset - by this development. Talking to any of the retails and wholesalers at the show the same message comes across time and again - the High End is dead for business - there simply aren't enough people prepared to spend enough money to keep the dealers in business. As a result they branch out in a variety of directions - most common is downscale into HiFi rather than High End (usually means items with 2 or 3 zeros rather than 4) and/or into home cinema. Budgets for home cinema are actually higher than for the remnents of stereo hi fi. $3500 projectors, $4000 flat screen plazma TVs, $2500 surround sound processing amplifiers with $3000 speaker systems apparently sell well enough and are easier to shift than a $1200 amp. What is interesting about this Chinese invasion is that it is not only going after the territory conquered by the Japanese / Korean marks - but it is also "attacking" the high end Mark sees as almost immune to previous Japanese attempts. Think how many people already use Chinese tubes in their amps - and how many chinese tube amps are appearing around the place - for reasons probably to do more with the lower tech requirements than anything else - they, as opposed to the Japanese - are really after this marketplace. Of course when we are saying High End in this sense (or audiophile if you prefer) We are talking about European and American audiophiles and not those in Japan. It is quite a shock to see some of the items the likes of Sony, Yamaha et al build for their own market. European and American stuff is bought over there for its novelty value more than anything else. They have some horn designs that make Avantgard look plain - and obviously Japanese product dominates in similar, but opposite fashion to the trend observed over here. All in all it promises to be an interesting few years ahead of us I think. Now - on another subject entirely - who knew Music Fidelity make a turntable - and a high end one at that. Was at the show and I forgot to mention it the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Saw Musical Fidelity's latest turntable in last month's Stereophile magazine. What a beauty IMO, and way past overdue. I know the Antony Michaelson is a concert clarinetist, and obviously a big fan of the analog LP format...All I can say is it's about time! Now if I just had the money to invest in one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 So... how many folks are more than happy to buy at that American store Wal-Mart? They have ruined whole town's economies by having lower prices than everyone else, and when the other local stores go out of business, they raise their prices. And how much Wal-Mart stuff is Chinese junk? (no pun intended) We want it both ways. Gotta have it, but I don't want to pay much for it ... Most times, we get what we pay for. (Exceptions noted on occasion) Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 No, false alarm, "Truth Or Fiction" claims, false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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