Center channel with K-horns! Wow!

[sfogg]

Erik,

"I honestly don't think I want to go back to exclusively two-channel stereo."

Since I started listening to well done multi-channel music (from a 2 channel source) it has ruined me forever to going back to two channels. It just sounds very artifical compared to how surround gets me closer to what music in an actual hall sounds like.

If you are curious to hear your system using a more active approach to deriving a center channel (and surrounds if desired) I'll lend you a music surround sound pre-amp (no strings attached) that will do that and much more.

Shawn

[sfogg]

Max,

" I am torn between "it will ruin everything" and "it is the most brilliant thing for stereo since the invention of the vinyl record"."

Three channels up front was recognized as superior to two channel a long long long time ago. The inventors of 'stereo' (meaning more then one channel) at Bell labs did a lot of work in this area back in the 30's I think. The problem they ran into was that they couldn't put three tracks into a vinyl album. They considered 2 channel stereo to be a compromise based on the available delivery method right from the start.

This is what got PWK interested in three channel stereo and he proceeded to write about this many times in the 'Dope From Hope' papers and was a big proponent of it.

Shawn

[ZAKO]

With the new SACD RCA Living Stereo in 2 and 3 channel .. Its now time to expierement with hooking up a viable 3 spreaker array with a true 3 channel preamp plus 3 discrete amps. Whos making a 3 channel preamp? Not just a derived mix but a discrete 3 channel unit.

[mikebse2a3]

For anyone interested in trying this.

I've been using the circuit/setup like Dean posted for several years with my Khorns/Belle. One really good feature I believe is that any characteristic of the main amp is taken on by the center channel amp which will give you the best match between channels if the amps being used are different. I've used a 2A3se amp with a 6BQ5 push/pull mono amp for center channel and the sound is so good I have not felt the need to build a 2A3se center channel amp.

Another thing I've done lately is feed the signal from the box into a creek OBH-10 passive volume control into the center channel amp. This way I can control the volume of the center channel or mute it for comparison of with/without the center channels contribution to the sound. This is really important to me because different songs and CD's sometimes benefit from a different center volume setting and being able to do this from my listening position is ideal.

mike

[garymd]

Thanks for the idea Erik. I have a pair of heresys not in use at the moment and would be interested in giving this a try at some point. I have no soldering skills but I have friends who may be willing to help. It may be a good project to get my feet wet. I'm thinking a heresy on the floor with the slanted riser (I have both slanted and unslanted).

So many things to try, so little time.

Could that same configuration be used to integrate a powered sub into the system? Is that how this idea started?

[Parrot]

paulparrot posted on this very subject in January:

The best speaker for the center between two Khorns is the Belle or La Scala. I have tried a Heresy and it does not come close to the Belle as a center. PWK pre-confirmed my experience.

Straight from Paul W. Klipsch, Dope from Hope, June 1976:

"We recommend our BELLE KLIPSCH or LA SCALA as a center speaker between our KLIPSCHORN, LA SCALA or BELLE KLIPSCH as flanking speakers. We do not like to use our HERESY or CORNWALL speakers between totally horn-loaded speakers."

. . . "Our HERESY exhibits lower distortion than any other speaker of its size and price. But it is still not an all-horn system. Having a direct-radiator bass unit, its distortion in the bass range is inevitably higher than that of our horn systems, and the cruel fact remains that the speaker system with the highest distortion determines the distortion level of the entire stereo array."

. . . "The perceived distortion is that of the poorest speaker in the array."

I have also just noticed a tremendous improvement in my multi channel SACD set-up by replacing my Heresy IIs with Belles in the surround channels.

Klipsch felt very strongly about this, even though he had originally designed the Heresy for a center channel:

"When a customer demands totally horn-loaded flanking speakers, but asks for a less expensive center channel, simply suggest he settle for a two speaker array until he can afford the correct speaker for the channel."

[jt1stcav]

----------------

On 11/24/2004 6:47:52 PM sfogg wrote:

Erik,

..."Now for you next step try a Hafler matrix to pull out some surround info....."

Shawn

----------------

http://www.dynaco.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=QD-2&Category_Code=

I've got the Hafler-designed Dynaco QD2 passive decoder that I bought new way back in '89(?)...it's been buried in my closet all this time since my bros have their high-end HT systems in our house. Obviously I could never achieve the Pro Logic steering with the QD2 for video (which is why I never bothered building an AV rig for myself). But it seems that maybe this lil' black box can do the trick for 3-channel stereo for my audio system (yes, no, maybe...). Plus it wouldn't require an additional amp (but I think it can accept one...I need to dig it out of my closet and read its instructions).

Is anyone here familiar with the Dynaco QD2, and if it will work essentially the same as what PWK had for 3-channel stereo, and the design Erik has with his system presently? I have a few late model Acoustic Research S-20 2-way monitors laying around not being used...maybe I could use one temporarilly until I can afford a lone Heresy...HMMMM!

[sfogg]

Yup, that is pretty much the same thing as what Erik is doing but at speaker level. To pull out a Hafler type surround you don't need any additional hardware though. Just connect another speaker(s) over the positive terminals of your stereo L/R amp. That will give you a passive rear ambiance channel. The big downside of doing this is you don't have much control over the rear speakers level and there is only around 3dB of channel seperation between the rear and front.

Still it can be pleasing until you try more active approaches.

Shawn

[sunnysal]

My marantz preamp has a center out with level control I wonder if that would do the same work as the box you made? then I could just pop an amp and speaker in the middle and try for myself...tony

[Guest Anonymous]

Erik,

Thanks man, you have some great threads going, I am now trying to figure how to integrate my 3 corns together for 2 channel. My father in law just asked me if the corn on my TV was playing, it is not, YET Max, great thought processes too, my friend.

[jt1stcav]

Thanks, Shawn for the reassurance. I'd like to experiment with the 3-channel stereo setup like Erik's, artto's, HornEd, and others who also share PWK's passion for 3-channel stereo.

I doubt whether I'd bother with the rear surrounds. I'm more interested in the effect of having a center channel only to add to my Cornwalls. If the passive Dynaco will do the trick and it sounds as 3-dimensional as what Erik has devised, than it should be a worthy addition to my system.

Now if I could only afford that lone vintage Cornwall on eBay...

[filmboydoug]

Heres the dope

Bridged center loudspeaker1.pdf

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn: That is a great offer, which I think I would be interested in trying. We were listening to music (me very carefully!), and things have suddenly changed to video games. I get sea-sick (video sick?) from watching that stuff, so I came here for a little relief![:

I have been such a firm advocate for 2-channel-only music listening, that I am sort of surprised at my own response to this 3-channel arrangement. Since I'm only going to have the Heresy here for maybe a week or so longer, I've been considering the possibility of using one of the Lowther horns in its place. I have a couple of pair of speakers I built in the past, but their voicing is just so different from the Klipschorns. The Lowthers are the only ones I have that would be able to keep up with the main speakers.

Paul P. mentioned the preference for a La Scala or Belle as the center speaker, and I have no doubt one of those would be fabulous. I'm just not sure our physical space would/could support the size of those, but I can see how either would be great. This is all very much in a recently-developed state right now, and I was actually going to put the minibox project off for a bit. I'm glad I didn't, because it's SO DIFFERENT in a very positive way.

Mr. Colterphoto: You're among the very few I have met (by way of this forum!)who know of 'Music For Airports.' I think it's an album one will either really dislike or treasure, and I have loved it since first hearing it many years ago. You are absolutely right about the importance of the need for reduced background noise that can interfere -- given it's very quiet, understated nature -- and the CD version sure has helped with that.

This adventure continues!

Erik

[playntheblues]

Ok Eric, shall we split a pair of La Scalas?

[sfogg]

Erik,

"That is a great offer, which I think I would be interested in trying. "

OK, I'll have to dig up some boxes for it but I should be able to ship it out on Monday if you like.

It gives you an *enourmous* amount of options and flexibility in how you want to tailor the music in surround so you can really dial it in to your liking and I can give you lots of setup tips and tweaks to try. If you wanted it would also let you kill two birds with one stone as it can also handle a subwoofer if desired and allows for processing for stereo bass like I had mentioned to you in the sub thread which should work well with your K'Horns.

"I have been such a firm advocate for 2-channel-only music listening, that I am sort of surprised at my own response to this 3-channel arrangement."

Most people I know that are >2 channel listeners were firm 2 channel listeners at some point. Then they experiences what additional channels can bring to the playback and their position changes. I used to be one too as well but that changed drastically on me. The key, like always, is to keep an open mind (ear).

Shawn

[Deang]

I'm waiting on some Heresy's that I'm eventually going to put to rear channel use. I hadn't given any thought to a center simply because my phantom image is so strong -- understandable, since the HF drivers in my K-horns are only 10 feet apart. I was just going to do the Hafler hookup scheme.

I do wonder about all of the people that have migrated from HT back to 2-channel -- there's plenty of them out there.

[sfogg]

Dean,

"I hadn't given any thought to a center simply because my phantom image is so strong -- understandable, since the HF drivers in my K-horns are only 10 feet apart."

Mine are closer then that and yet the center improves things there too.

Try this test.

Put on a vocal heavy recording, something that really shows off the human voice. For example I like using any of the 'Cowboy Junkies' discs as Margo has such a beautiful voice.

Listen to it in mono through your two speakers at your normal listening position.

Now crank your balance control over to just one side (or disconnect and amp or whatever) and move yourself to be centered on that speaker the same distance away.

Listen to how the vocals will change. You will probably find that they have more body, loose that bit of 'phasiness' (comb filtering) to the sound and just in general sound more real.

Thats is one of the benefits that having a real center channel can do for you over having a phantom.

"I do wonder about all of the people that have migrated from HT back to 2-channel -- there's plenty of them out there."

Far far more have moved in the other direction.

And having 3 speakers (or more) doesn't automatically mean HT to the exclusion of music listening. From everything I have ever seen on PWK he used more then 2 channels pretty much his entire life.

HT has just reintroduced this concept to a heck of a lot more listeners.

Shawn

[Deang]

Well, with my false corners I sure as hell don't have room for a LaScala in there -- but I could probably stack the Heresy's.

In PWK's biography, there was a sketch of a three-channel setup using TWO monoblocks, and making use of the different taps to stablize the impedance. Has anyone here seen this besides me?

[3dzapper]

I have been running my Heresy system in a three way config for a while now by running the center off the pos terminals of the Jolida. The presentation is mahvelous! I tried it with the Khorns but the lower efficiency of the Heresy based center needs a third amp.

I will have to build one of those resistor networks and try it with my Scott 99C. Since the Scott has a volume control, I should be able to get away with three 25K Ohm resistors with the tap before the last one. Although, I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to use resistor values that match or exceed the input impedance of the Wrights?

Rick

[sfogg]

Rick,

If you want to try the same pre-pro I offered to lend Erik I have no problem with that. If you like I can set it up for you and show you how the various tweaks effect the presentation.

Shawn