paulaelliott Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Now that my front stage is sounding 'perfect!', time to look at the surrounds. I'm running 16 gauge zip chord to my two surrounds, one of which is about 44 ft away, and the other, about 30 ft. When I check my test tones with my Rat Shack SPL meter, I find I need to put a Plus 6 on the surrounds to get them to the same level as the fronts. I dont do any 5 channel stereo, but the surrounds are pretty active in some of my Concert Hall modes, supplying mostly ambient and and delay effects. And of course, in HT mode, theyre useful. I kind of thought that so long as I had DB left in the amp to play with in boosting my rear channels, I'm ok...But now Im wondering, if Id be better off in running heavier cables... So, here's the question...Am I better off running new 12 gauge cable to the surrounds, or, can I keep the existing 16 gauge runs, and simply run another run of the same 16 gauge cable to them? I think this will give me an effective 13 gauge. Assuming 12 gauge and 13 gauge will give me the same throughput, my question is more about impedence....Where will I have the most effective resistance: with one run 12 or two runs of 16? And, is this an important consideration in deciding this issue? thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 NO. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 16 gauge copper wire has a resistance of 4.1 ohms per 1,000 feet. That's .41 ohms per hundred feet, or a bit over .16 ohms for the distance you are running. That is enough ( I think...) resistance to have at least a minor effect on damping factor and on eveness of frequency response, depending upon the impedence of your speakers and the output impedence of your amp. 12 gauge wire has about 1/3 the resistance of 16 gauge. I think you might hear a difference going to the 12 gauge IF you are running your rear surounds full range (they get significant bass signal) OR they are fairly low impedence (cause they will interact less with the wire's impedence). If your rears are small and you don't push a lot of bass through them, and/or they have a fairly high and uniform impedence, I doubt you'd hear much difference between 12 and 16 gauge wire, everything else (construction, lay, materials, etc.) being the same. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the borg Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 cable counts...but...the tech's at Monster Cable told me not to waste money on z-series cable for surrounds and back surround speakers, even though my RS7's are internally wired with z-series cable. i was told to z-up the fronts and subs, but any of the Monster XPHP speaker cable is all that is needed for any rear action, especially if the surrounds are over 12 feet away. having said that, i must tell you that as important as the cables are, it's the speakers that make all the difference in the world. when i replaced my Klipsch KSF5's with RS7 surrounds (i continued using my old Monster THX rated HP Flat White Cable) and went from playing the KSF5 surrounds at +6, +8, to now playing the RS7's at a flat 0 (zero) setting, and i'm actually getting so much surround sound that its sometimes annoying. my RF & RC7's are also set to zero, and when i put my old RF3's in the back surround position, i have to boost them to +4, +5, just to be in the ballgame (to be heard). use banana clips at each connection point and you will be "happy & not snappy". we are the borg... system: -Denon 5800 -Sony S7700 DVD -Pioneer 606/dts/dd LD -Proscan 60-inch rptv -SVS 16/46 twin subs w/Samson 700 watt amp -Klipsch RF, RC, RS7 speakers -Klipsch RF3's in back surround position -JVC S-VCR -Directv satellite system (AC3) -Monster Z-series speaker cables -Monster Z-series & M-series interconnects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulaelliott Posted August 7, 2001 Author Share Posted August 7, 2001 Borg, >>when i replaced my Klipsch KSF5's with RS7 surrounds (i continued using my old Monster THX rated HP Flat White Cable) and went from playing the KSF5 surrounds at +6, +8, to now playing the RS7's at a flat 0 (zero) setting, and i'm actually getting so much surround sound that its sometimes annoying. my RF & RC7's are also set to zero, and when i put my old RF3's in the back surround position, i have to boost them to +4, +5, << I assume this is because the the RS7 has a sensitivity of 98 and the KSF5 is rated at 90. But, what I dont understand is why the loudness per volume level is any different with your RS7 thatn wth your RF3: their both rated at 98db! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 Paul, I don't think you'll hear the difference between the 16 ga. and 12 ga. on your surrounds. I think the biggest factor id the limited frequency response of surround speakers and the information sent to them in a *typical* movie. Two 16s would be as good as one 12, but not a "clean". John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulE Posted August 7, 2001 Share Posted August 7, 2001 >>Two 16s would be as good as one 12, but not a "clean".<< Really? Isnt that real similar to what we do when speaker manufacturers recommend that we biwire their speakers? Arent we sending 2 sets of cable from one amp terminal to a speaker? Why would it be clean here, but not when running to a single set of terminals on surrounds? Perhaps, because the run to the surrounds is longer, you might have slightly more of a case for the image to smear, but still, I would think two runs of identical 16 gauge cable should be pretty much as clear as 1 run of 12. Again, if not, then why does biwiring not 'dirty' the image....Ooops...I forgot...there are those who say it does! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samuel r Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 to settle this matter, wouldn't a 14ga. wire be the best bet? it's not a 12ga and it isn't a 16ga. also, bi-wiring goes to two seperate pairs of posts, not two seperate wires to one pair post. i would imagine(just common sense..i think) using two seperated wires two one post would be like splitting the signal and then reuniting it at the other end to either do the same thing or just hinder the sound that one wire would provide. it's kinda like trying to match the diameter of ignition cables from your distributor cap to the spark plugs in your vehicle. to thick without ample voltage will not send a strong current. to thin and....well you get the picture. most of this stuff is mostly common sense. we are here to see, read and tell about our and other peoples findings and ideas and feed off the free, highly appreciated discoveries that come about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted August 21, 2001 Share Posted August 21, 2001 I'll ditto Ray. Isn't Ray out of town? Is this a pod person? The wire seems reasonable in the circumstances. Alterations to wire will not make a difference. On the other hand, speaker placement and setting of the HT menu might yield some optimized results. So those are worth playing with first. That you've investigated with the RS meter indicates you're experienced in such matters. So I suspect you can apply the same techiques to the surrounds. Congrats on getting the front sound stage perfect. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 08-21-2001 at 10:07 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 Ray WAS out of town. Ray is now back in town. Whether he is, in fact, a pod person is another question altogether. "Look, you fools. You're in danger. Can't you see? They're after you. They're after all of us. Our wives, our children, everyone. They're here already. YOU'RE NEXT!" Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilH Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 It's PEOPLE!!! My God...Soylent Green is PEOPLE!!!! AAAHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRGGGG!!!!!!........ (sorry, wrong movie) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_S Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 Just thinking about Donald Sutherland making that hideous screeching noise gives me the willies. Hmmm...speaking of pod people ---> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 So Paul. How has the wiring worked out? Way off topic, but "old" movies slipped in here. And since Ray or Pod Ray is back... In Forbidden Planet, Leslie Nealson used the term "murder" as a mild explitive. An uncle of mine did too in the '50s. I seem to recall it is the rough phoentic equivalent of a term in French which is less mild. So, Ray, what is your read? Let's see, pod people screech. Any tie-in to Klipsch speakers? (I tend to think Klipsch speakers don't, and direct radiators do.) Obviously part of the litmus test. Are there pod Klipsches? Regards, Pod Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted August 30, 2001 Share Posted August 30, 2001 *** WARNING *** Sensitive Psycie Tender Ear Avoidence Area *** WARNING ***c>s> merde: sh*t manges la merde: eat sh*t ce sont des conneries: That's a load of sh*t c'est rien que de la merde: Its just a bunch of sh*t ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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