Cal Blacksmith Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Here is a link to a blind A b X test with power cords december 2004. Just thought it was interesting. NO I won't tell you the outcome. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Interesting article, thanks. In this ABX test, all that the participants are asked to do is listen to A, listen to B, and then upon hearing X, decide whether X is A or B. So this test is meant to determine if differences can be heard and not the much more important and much more variable issue of which is "better." "Better" leads to a multitude of problems of course, like how much detail is just right and when does it become over-etched, et cetera et cetera et cetera et cetera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Oh Boy! Here we go again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 As ever with these tests this is a test of audio memory as much as it is of sonic differences between cables. Interesting to note the approach of some of the testee's - listen to A, forget A, listen to B and compare that to X. Would give them a better chance of saying B is X or B is not X therefore A is. It would be interesting to find a test that switched cables much quicker - eliminating, as far as possible the memory issue. I did a single blind like that with Tony once - we were trying to establish if there was a difference between 2 optical cables connecting a DVD player (Denon) to the receiver (Yamaha). What we did was connect the Denon up to the receiver via optical - the cheap cable, and Coaxial and RCA. Tony then flicked the dial from one to another a few times and back. All I had to do was say which one I prefered. The order with the first run was RCA best, Coax second and optical last. We then switched the cheap optical cable for the expensive one and repeated the experiment. The order was Optical first, RCA second, coax third. I dont think it proved much but it made me feel better about spending $80 on a 1 meter optical cable! Actually - Tony has that cable now - the sod!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Real human subject research defined here as "AB/X" is where each individual is used as their own variable AND control. As such the research design must eliminate and or analyze (not introduce) any bias present in the population studied. In this (ha ha) study not only were the subjects coached the assessment of results was based upon a questionaire tool whose content was left entirely out of the publication. Even if all else was worthy of merit the sample population shown is all male and the sample size is way too small for any valid statistical analysis. There are ways to objectively study human subjective evaluation of audio systems. This is simply a marketing tool and any manufacturer associated with such work should be patently ashamed...or patently suspect. Not funny, not good when people bastardize scientific procedure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 i'm not sure if this was an audio asylum or here, but basically this test was pretty flawed on a number of levels..... and really can't be taken as a true measure of differences in cables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Well, I went out and read a little of the article, but it was too much like work to stay with it. Thanks for posting it, cablacksmith. It is interesting to see what people are doing in audio. While not being a technical person, I genuinely enjoy good sound. My take on the wire is wire philosophy is that yes, mostly wire is wire. More precisely stated: Adequate wire is adequate wire. Beyond getting up to that standard, it is interesting enough to be able to discern a "difference". Evaluating the "difference" is a whole other country. I'm not completely cynical about it, but must admit I had an adverse reaction to the opening words of the article which indicated that there would be A/B/X testing of power cords. Now, what I'd really like to see is this same crowd testing cable risers. I'd put up my styrofoam coffee cups up against anybody's high end solution to getting the speaker cable off the floor. Remembering a few things I've come to know about Mr. Paul is a real sanity check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygmn Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 This is for power cables right? I cannot see how they could possibly help or change the sound from an amp, receiver or whatever since these components have power supplies in them that regulate the internal power for everything....... all power cables are is like the fuel hose at the gas station....they allow the gas to flow (raw electricity)....but do not effect the quality of the gas (voltage levels) unless they are really really bad hoses that are falling apart..... I mean what engineering/scientific thing could these power cables do to improve the sound from components? If adequately sized for the amperage they would be good enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Having a detachable power cord is almost a necessity nowadays on audiophile equipment, or your sales will suffer. Power cords is *the thing* with a lot of audiophiles, and one of the first things changed out by the high-dollar modders. Frozen ones in particular are big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Sorry, I forgot to mention in my earlier offering that a truly "blind" study also means that the administrators of the study are also blind to the variables as they change. Again in this work they're not and they council those whom supposedly are blind to the cord switches. They might just as well held up a sign saying, "Now here's the high ned product we want you to prefer". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 And you've got to have a blind test, otherwise you can't eliminate the role of expectations. Mark, how much do you charge for your $2500 power cord BlueBerry option? Call it "The Juice." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 I will agree with Mark. To me once it was seen the amounts that people would pay for NOS tubes and some saying "I did this and it sounds great now," the floodgates were opened to all types of ludicrous "tweaks." dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 ---------------- On 12/15/2004 1:54:50 PM dodger wrote: the floodgates were opened to all types of ludicrous "tweaks." ---------------- It's especially silly when you realize that some of these very same people who have spent hundreds or even thousands of dollars on a power cord plug it in to the BOTTOM part of the receptacle instead of the TOP!!!--where everybody knows the more high-end electricity suitable for audio comes out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 No it wasnt a scientific test with thousands of people to get a true cross-section of the world but the point was to see if people could hear the difference of two power cords, one of the newest snake oil products. I do not believe in any difference and you all know that I believe that a properly sized cable of reasonable quality is all the cable you need and that there are no audible differences between them and mega buck cables. I cant possibly imagine that a super duper power cord will do anything other than drain the wallet of the buyer. The over all results of this limited test bear that out. Now if you want to discuss risers for your cables, I know an article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Yup I find power cords laughable just pull the fuse out of your piece of gear and lay it beside the garden hose cord and explain why a high rent cord makes a difference. I think I'm going to have to develop a "Audiophile Fuse" with internal gold conductor and end contacts. I bet I could get $100 a piece at the very least. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 ---------------- On 12/15/2004 2:25:26 PM NOSValves wrote: I think I'm going to have to develop a "Audiophile Fuse" with internal gold conductor and end contacts. I bet I could get $100 a piece at the very least. Craig ---------------- There is an idea! You could find some esoteric material to make fuses out of, say, carbon like Edison used in early light bulb experiments. Gold plate the ends of the fuses, DEEP DEEP FREEZE THEM, then sell them as superior to ordinary fuses because they are made from the same thing Edison used in his lab, (who cares if it was for a different purpose!) The fact that they blow so fast shows how well they are protecting your system, thus they are worth the mere price of $79.99 each! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 A day late and a dollar short again Craig! Of "course" those are for autosound so you could be the Homeaudio Fuse Guy. Rick http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50551&item=5737580361&rd=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Comments: too bad they didnt use ultra-sensitive big ole horns the gang looks like those of us who gathered at preacherman Daddydees May 2004 Klipsch gathering in Little Rock, Arkansas training listeners works and is NOT invalid listeners should NOT have moved or changed seats the group is representative of tweaking audiophiles a ton of variables enter the room with each audio component the review is way too long should have been two stories makes more sense if you read harmon/kardon white papers The conclusion then drawn by some observers is that, indeed, once ABOVE a certain performance threshold, amplifiers do sound alike.!?! Way too many tests in too short a period it was much easier to hear differences in sound between components than between power cords. Too many components and test CDs The CDs should show voices AND the extremes of music The only Telarc disc does NOT definitely prove that its choral music was the best test sample They immediately changed the test because of perceived capabilities of ONE of the power cords!!! Then ran longer tests on the second group Discussed cord differences BEFORE the test? Group simply is NOT large enough more like 15 or thirty and two cords would be better The woman was no more accurate Yet no statistically significant detection of power cable differences Just as surprising: no significant differences based on whether listener was an audiophile Although 9 of the 15 bought after-market cords, ONLY six felt strongly they could tell the difference and they scored less than half-right. The most correct listener was no more sure about the amount of difference than the worse listener The most correct listener was right about the time required to switch cords There were several acknowledged weaknesses to the test. The number of participants and trials was not very high. Most people sat far from the sweet spot. The ideal situation, which would have allowed participants to audition A and B more than once before trying to identify X, was not possible because the length of time it would have taken to do so would have burned everyone out. (Many members of the second group said they were fried by the time 3:30 PM rolled around.) Switchers failed to turn on both amps three times, and Baci Brown of canine renown further interrupted the flow twice with scratching and barking at outside sounds and a perceived need to pee it all out in the yard. Finally, and perhaps of greatest significance, the time it took to switch cords was longer than the generally accepted 5 second length of human auditory memory. This reduced what Manny terms the differential sharpness of perception of participants. Finally, there are no monkeys in the real world typing Shakespeare it doesnt exist. Wonderful effort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Colin, that was another piece of great writing and the notation of the flaws. You and Cablesmith are both to be commended. Craig: You would need some fancy packaging and limit supply. Thus demand may be even higher. Such demand and "back-order" would then create an even higher level of demand justifying higher prices. The number of "Authorized Dealers" should be kept to a minimum and only to high end Purveyors of Audio Specialties. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 ---------------- On 12/15/2004 2:52:02 PM 3dzapper wrote: A day late and a dollar short again Craig! Of "course" those are for autosound so you could be the Homeaudio Fuse Guy. Rick http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50551&item=5737580361&rd=1 ---------------- Rick, There only $2.99 for a 5 pack no way could they be as good as my soon to be released $79 a piece real audiophile fuses !! I'm getting out the gold paint as I type Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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