Coytee Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Would a McIntosh amp give the same soundstage as a 2A3 SET? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 My experience is that the pre-amp is the BIG definer of soundstage, rather than the power amp, although it is collective in the end. When I was first getting into tubes, the general consensus (be it right or wrong) was that a full tube system was a little "soft" or overly "flabby". I went for tube PP output amps and a SS pre-amp. I have since changed my mind and think that the pre-amp should be tubes and the output amp be solid state, but this is a matter of personal opinion. I've found that each pre-amp seems to have its own "version" of soundstage even with the same amp. A good, quiet tube pre-amp will get you to where you want to go, IMO. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 Would that infer it would be worth my while to hook up my newly acquired Peach, to my old Yamaha Cr 2040 (120x2) main inputs to see what happens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 I would. I'm the curious type. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 ---------------- On 12/28/2004 2:20:49 PM Coytee wrote: Would that infer it would be worth my while to hook up my newly acquired Peach, to my old Yamaha Cr 2040 (120x2) main inputs to see what happens? ---------------- I would say, yeh! Hook up that sweet Peach and see what it sounds like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 The WIDTH of the 3D sonic holographic image is the soundstage. It is directly related to the distance of the speakers to the side walls. Big ole horns should start off in the corners then inch them away from the corners until the image is at its largest - measure the distances between each loudspeaker and you and make sure they are exact - to the inch - it makes a difference - sit at the apex of the long triangle - twice as far as the distance between the speakers and enjoy! Big ole horns have incredible sweet spots really sharp images when you sit in them. At preacherman Daddydees May 2004 Klipsch gathering in Little Rock, Arkansas, I had the chance to hear several new and refurbished vintage integrated tube amplifiers and a little McIntosh receiver with DEQ2496 equalization in a large room. In my own humble opinion, the effect of SOUNDSTAGE was NOT noticeably improved by either solid-state or tube amplification. I believe this effect has much more to do with loudspeaker placement, room size and reflections than simply amplification. Imaging is the illusion of a 3D sonic holographic. That however, is another story. The delicacy of the flea-powered 2A3 tube seems to make for wonderful imaging capabilities with ultra-sensitive big ole horns. This capability reviled the best amplifier I have seriously auditioned, in my own home, with the same music and equipment, for EnjoyTheMusic.com, which was the superlative Pass Laboratories Balanced Single-Ended X250 monster amplifier, for six times the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 ---------------- On 12/28/2004 3:22:26 PM Colin wrote: The WIDTH of the 3D sonic holographic image is the soundstage. It is directly related to the distance of the speakers to the side walls. Big ole horns should start off in the corners – then inch them away from the corners until the image is at its largest ----------------- Is this to suggest/infer that K-horns would sound better perhaps, when moved AWAY from the wall/corner? Seems virtually all the reading I've done has suggested keeping them tight as possible. (???) (I am now using K-horns) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 OH! Do you have Khorns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 K-horns AND LaScalas AND (3) Academy's, so you are forgiven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 In my own humble opinion, the soundstage of classic Klipsch corner Khorns at preacherman Daddydees May 2004 Klipsch gathering, was NOT appreciably different with a new Cayin TA30, Quad IIs integrated tube amplifiers or, at a friends house, with his equalized McIntosh solid-state receiver. It was, and is, and will always be wonderfully big, wide, crisp, clear and clean, like no other loudspeaker I have heard for the money, when tightly fitted into the equidistant corners of a rectangular room! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Have I said this lately? Please post your movie and music tastes, room dimensions, speakers and front-end equipment in your system profile, this will help forum members give you thoughtful, insightful answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 Perhpas I'm using the wrong terminology then as far as soundstage goes. Perhaps I mean to say depth and projection? (projection of the music into the room where the speaker disappears) My situation is, I heard them (K-horns) with a 2A3 as I recall, and loved the way they sounded. They did NOT have that "band sitting in the middle of my room" sound with my Yamaha receiver, so I stumbled around and purchased sight/sound unseen, a Jolida pp, 60x2 integrated. The Jolida sounded a lot better than the Yamaha, but STILL didn't put the band "into" the room, so I've bought (again, sight/sound unseen) Mark's Peach pre-amp in the anticipation of getting yet another poweramp. All this acquiring sight/sound unseen frankly makes me nervous as it's not McDonalds money after a couple items are added up. I've heard nothing but raves about McIntosh which is fine/dandy. I've heard about the 2A3 SET amps. Long story short, I'm trying to comprehend if it's the "2a3" tube that is the magic, or the "SET" that is the magic, and/or if McIntosh also has that SAME 3-D magic. I want to end the search sooner rather than later so I can just relax and enjoy having the band play in the room Do I have enough grasp of the material where I even made sense above?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Richard, I have a McIntosh MC300 ss power amp and a C40 ss pre-amp on horns. I swapped out the C40 with a Conrad Johnson P-5 tube pre and I was astounded that it sounded pretty much as good as the $4000 ss preamp. The soundstage did change a bit though. By this I mean that the depth cues were different. Not better, per se, but just different than what I was used to. Overall, I was taken back by the performance-to- cost ratio of the used tube pre-amp. I have tube power mono-blocks, but frankly, they lack the dynamics of the big MC300. As a bonus, the ss amp does not require any care and feeding. Overall, the maximum degree of depth and the overall size stayed the same but the "internal" positions of the instruments/performers changed slightly within the confines of the soundstage. They may have moved slightly from the usual position or may have moved slightly forward or backward from the "usual" place that I was accustom to. Also, I noted that the tube pre-amp was less susceptable to cabling issues; it produced an "equivelent" soundstage with cheap copper interconnects as the ss gear did on expensive silver cabling, which by-the-way is a requirement on ss gear, IMO. So, I have arrived at the idea that the pre-amp is preferably tube and the output amp being a quality high powered solid state for the best of both worlds. But it's a matter of taste. But after quite a few years of messing with it, that's where I'm at now. If someone would have come up with this years ago, I could have saved myself alot of money and arrived here sooner! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Hate to make it even more complicated but sound stage and imaging is the sum of the whole system. Be it synergy and/or quality components. In my system I get much better soundstage with my analog rig over my digital. You will have to invest some time and money to get the desired performance out of your system. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 ---------------- On 12/28/2004 1:55:49 PM Coytee wrote: Would a McIntosh amp give the same soundstage as a 2A3 SET?---------------- Nope better of course this is IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssh Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Notice, too the NOS Valves avatar SSH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 ---------------- On 12/30/2004 12:02:23 AM ssh wrote: Notice, too the NOS Valves avatar SSH ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Coytee said: All this acquiring sight/sound unseen frankly makes me nervous as it's not McDonalds money after a couple items are added up. Long story short, I'm trying to comprehend if it's the "2a3" tube that is the magic, or the "SET" that is the magic, and/or if McIntosh also has that SAME 3-D magic. ------------------------ I believe the Speakers and Room are the two biggest factors in your final outcome Coytee. Yes it can be a real merry-go-round and $$$$ trying different equipment to get the sound your looking for.Imaging and clarity are very easly compromised by the room. After over 30years of this hobby/obsession IMHO once good quality equipment is aquired you will end up with personel preferances but the room will be the controlling factor in your sound and the imaging you desire. I've had my Khorns in three very different rooms(and each room has had its challenges) and this made more differances than any equipment changes.This assumes good equipment to begin with. I'm trying a Behringer EQ now(already done all the room treatments I can) because I know more equipment changes aren't going to address the problems that my room is causing.Already I can tell an improvement in clarity ,tone and a more in the room feel from the music from using the EQ. Older style EQs never helped me but this modern EQ seems to be a different story. Buying quality equipment is good but if you find yourself swapping it because your still not satisfied then I would suggest trying to deal with the room issues if possible. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 ---------------- On 12/28/2004 3:53:38 PM Coytee wrote: Long story short, I'm trying to comprehend if it's the "2a3" tube that is the magic, or the "SET" that is the magic, and/or if McIntosh also has that SAME 3-D magic. ---------------- It's the Kllpschorns that are the 'magic'. The 2A3, SET, or the McIntosh are constituents of the incantation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 ---------------- On 12/30/2004 1:43:58 AM mikebse2a3 wrote: I'm trying a Behringer EQ now(already done all the room treatments I can) because I know more equipment changes aren't going to address the problems that my room is causing. mike ---------------- Mike, I think you got this right on. If most of us had the money and the option, we'd design the room FIRST, then start adding components second (speakers, amps, sources, etc.). The room is the "final enclosure" whose modes determine the overall sound quality. My next house will be done from the ground up (unless we're fortunate enough to find one that scratches all our itches), and the HT/Listening Room will be thoughtfully considered before a nail is driven! _______________________________ Music Hall MMF-7 Turntable w/ Goldring Eroica H MC Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CDP with 24 bit/192 KHz Upsampling Wright Sound WPP-100C Phono Stage JF Lessard Pantheon 6SN7 SRPP Preamp w/ RCA 5R4GY & Sylvania 6SN7 JF Lessard Horus Parafeed Cobalt 2A3 SET Monoblocks w/ Tung Sol 5687 & AVVT 2A3 1976 KCBR Klipschorns with ALK Crossovers Gear Online: Two Channel & Home Theater Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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