126mhz Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 Hello all: I don't want to open a can of worms on my lack of understanding but here goes anyway. One of my systems consists of a Dynaco ST70 that had been out of service until I recently had tunbes4hifi.com install his new board on it. I just got it back, (see my thread on the great Roy did on my old Dynaco) and I wanted to try it out before I had a chance to wire it in with an old McIntosh C11 tube pre amp it had been woring with. Sooooo, I plugged it in with a Carver C4000 solid state pre amplifier I have. (and love) It sounds great but does one lose most or all of the benifits of a tube amplifier when you integrate it with a solid state pre amplifier? Is there a "Burn in" time for a amplifier with all new tubes? Thanks, Bill Woodward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 I would use a tube preamp if I were you or you'll lose the sonic benefits of your amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 " but does one lose most or all of the benifits of a tube amplifier when you integrate it with a solid state pre amplifier?" No. Your amp gets fed a signal that it amplifies. It has no idea if that signal is coming from a tubed, passive or a SS pre-amp. If a person hears a difference in pre-amps with a single amplifier then they are hearing the differences in the pre-amps. The tube amp doesn't work differently when a different pre-amp is connected to it. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 6, 2005 Share Posted March 6, 2005 "If a person hears a difference in pre-amps with a single amplifier then they are hearing the differences in the pre-amps. The tube amp doesn't work differently when a different pre-amp is connected to it." I'm lazy, I skipped the pre-amp and just use a stepped attenuator after the source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Mike, " I skipped the pre-amp and just use a stepped attenuator after the source." As long as the source has enough juice to drive the amp directly that is a very inexpensive way to get great sound for little money without having to worry about noise or gain issues. I have owned several passive pre-amps over the years and enjoyed all of them. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 BTW: Wanted to mention that the inverse of the above... tube pre-amp with tube or SS amp may not be quite as simple an answer. Some tube pre-amps have a fairly high output impedance so for them to work best they need to be driving an amp with a high input impedance... which tube amps typically have. SS amps can have high input impedances but not all do. Some can be comparitively low which might cause an interaction with a pre-amp with a high output impedance. Its for this reason, among others, why some tube pre-amp (like the Peach and BlueBerry) offer either a high output impedance mode as well as a lower output impedance to give it more flexibility for what it is paired up with. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 ---------------- On 3/6/2005 10:33:49 PM 126mhz wrote: It sounds great but does one lose most or all of the benifits of a tube amplifier when you integrate it with a solid state pre amplifier? ---------------- No - not necessarily. Its all about synergy (not the speakers) and what works together best in your system. Generally, the preamp has a bigger impact on the sound as opposed to the amp. That being said, each amp sounds different - including tube amps, and you can retain some of the benefits of the tube sound by still using a solid state pre with a tube amp. Also, depends on the particular preamp. I have done both: tube pres/solid state and solid state pres and tube amps. Both combinations have given me tube benefits. Currently, I am running my RF-7s with a vintage solid state pre and Dynaco Mark IIIs - really a nice combination. Some solid state control benefits yet a warm, lush, detailed tube sound. Yet, I also run all tubes for my Belles (Peach & 8B). If it sounds great, stop. Enjoy it for awhile. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 there are no rules, no right pairings, it all depends on your individual tastes. try out the different combos until you find what you like. I settled on a tube amp with SS pre because the few tube pres I tried in my system sounded too "bloated" in combo with my tube amp for my taste. listening is the best judge, not any supposed rules. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Personally, I think that you get a bigger bang for the buck for that "tube sound" with a tube preamp, even when driving SS power amps with it. In the case of tube power amps, they don't care what is driving them, the better quality they are, the less difference it makes. However, I find that most of the desirable "tube sound" comes from the preamp, rather than the power amps. But to each their own. It's all a matter of taste and opinion. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 Good answer Foggy- I am of the other school, I think the tube amp makes more of a difference with big ole horns than the tube pre-amp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 you tell us? how does the Scott sound on the LaScalas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
126mhz Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 I just hooked up my "New" Scott 299D (completely redone by Charlie at Vacuum Tube Valley) and I'm just blown away with the clairity, the gutsey bass, (as compared to my ST70) and I never knew how to hear what the audio reviewers called "Tight," both bass and overall sound wise, but now I do. I've never owned or listened to the megabuck systems except in my local high end Hi Fi shop, but to me this is about as good as it gets in the real world. I listened to Diana Krall, Best of Simon and Garfunkel, AC/DC Back in Black, Miles Davis, kind of blue, and Joni Mitchell, Hits. Everything sounded miles ahead of my Dynaco ST70 and Carver C4000 pre amp. (Overall sound was no better then my Dynaco ST70 with my McInotsh C11 Pre, but the bass was noticably better with the Scott I guess because of the 7591 tubes verses the EL84s in the Dynaco) Charlie Kittelson at Vacuum Tube Valley told me my 299D was made in 1963 or 1964. These guys had it so right all those years ago, it's difficult to see how many more years, (and how much more money) it took them to equal this kind of sound with solid state gear. I will be buying more Scott products, even if they're old to have them redone. It's got to be one of the best values in sound out there. Thrilled, Bill Woodward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 A new integrated tube amplifier which sold for about $700 in the 70s, should sell for about $2,100 now, if the dollar remained constant. Instead, similar quality models now cost $3 to 6K or more! While refurbished vintage integrated tube amplifiers sell for $525 to $775! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 I have used several tube preamplifiers with my SET tube amps. I have also used a similar number of solid state preamps that worked very well, including a Carver that worked very well, it's rather higher residual noise level notwithstanding. As Shawn mentioned, impedance matching between stages is pretty important, and you might use a 1-to-10 ratio between the two as a rough estimate of what would work suitably. '1' would be the driving output impedance and '10' would the input impedance of the load. Solid state can absolutely work very well with tube amplifiers, and is now what I happen to be using. In the end, it might be not have so much to do with whether the output device is vacuum tube or transistor based, but rather what sounds right with the equipment you have. I tend to like a 'cleaner' and bright sound, which SS preamps seem to offer a little more of than (some) tube preamps. Two very good sounding tube preamps that I have had the pleasure of listening to are Transcendent Sound's 'Grounded Grid' and the Juicy Music 'Peach' linestage. I've built two of the Grounded Grids for other forum members who have been very happy with them. The Peach is designed by a very experienced audio engineer who is also a member of this forum. Both are very clean sounding and totally silent with high efficiency speakers. I am not of the 'school of thought' that follows the belief that the preamp is what dictates the overall sound of a system, although there are others here who do adhere to that philosophy. I think we are just pointing out our own tastes and preferences, which is as it should be. I think there are examples of both tubes and transistor preamps that are subjectively better than others. I too have used a passive attenuator, as Mike and Shawn mentioned, and it is absolutely a great way to get very fine sound under the right circumstances. Among those are probably: low capacitance and shorter interconnects and attention to the impedance concern mentioned above. Have fun! Does the Carver have the Sonic Holography feature? I thought it sounded pretty good with my tube amps! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 ---------------- ... I guess because of the 7591 tubes verses the EL84s in the Dynaco. ---------------- The ST-70 has EL34 output tubes, not EL84 tubes. Glad you like the Scott. I love it when folks get something and like it. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
126mhz Posted March 7, 2005 Author Share Posted March 7, 2005 ---------------- On 3/7/2005 9:45:07 PM Marvel wrote: ---------------- ... I guess because of the 7591 tubes verses the EL84s in the Dynaco. ---------------- The ST-70 has EL34 output tubes, not EL84 tubes. Glad you like the Scott. I love it when folks get something and like it. Marvel ---------------- My mistype, I'm told and I believe I can hear the difference in the bass with more "Guts" in the 7591's than the EL34's. Bill Woodward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted March 7, 2005 Share Posted March 7, 2005 For what it's worth, my view is the power amp should be tube. The pre amp could be either solid state or tube, depending on synergistic considerations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.