What's all the fuss about?!

[fgarib]

Actually quite excited. In about an hour and a half, I'm going to go listen to this tube sound that you guys keep talking about for the first time.

Have been looking for a nice tube amp for a long time, but couldn't quite risk just buying one if I didn't like the sound. And in Pakistan, this technology is not popular enough for the neighborhood audio store carrying a demo amp for auditions.

So anyway, I'm going to go audition a pair of MC-30's paired with a Conrad Johnson pre (that I posted about earlier). The setup will be auditioned on a nice pair of Snell 4 ohmers, so I don't know if I'll get a real idea of what they would sound like on my Khorns.

Part of me is excited as heck while part of me hopes I hate it. Can't afford to really really want them at this time.

Wish me luck!!

-F

[Audible Nectar]

"I'm going to go audition a pair of MC-30's paired with a Conrad Johnson pre (that I posted about earlier). The setup will be auditioned on a nice pair of Snell 4 ohmers, so I don't know if I'll get a real idea of what they would sound like on my Khorns."

Allow me to tell you how that setup will sound through Klipschorns:

"Part of me is excited as heck while part of me hopes I hate it. Can't afford to really really want them at this time."

Whoops! Gotta tell you, if you go, you will buy. Especially at that price - from the sounds of your prior post, it looks like a very good deal - and trust me, MC-30's don't come along often - especially in that part of the world.

From my own personal experience, the MC-30 is one of the best power amplifiers you could get for Klipschorns. McIntosh tubes on Klipsch Heritage? It's a match made in heaven.

[fgarib]

Hey there,

I went, I saw... and was slightly disappointed.

I have never heard the tube sound before, so I was paying close attention to the sound differences. And heard plenty. However, before I leave for work, I just want to give a very quick run down on what I felt.

The uppers and mid were just glorious! No doubt. But the rest of the sound was just flat. And I don't mean just slightly lacking... because even I know that the bass response with tubes can be slightly lower compared to SS. No, this was just flat and a tad bit overpowering.

Then I realized that he had biamped the Snells with the LF powered by a big Conrad Johnson amp (don't know the model number, but it's an old old one.)

Also, the valves on the 30's weren't lighting up bright at all. I don't know if they're supposed to, but there was one small tube on both amps (output tubes, perhaps?) that had a small, dim glow on the top.

So the sound was nice, but a little stifled due to the terrible lower ends. What's the deal?

I'm still tempted to pick them up, but I'm not quite sure if this is a good pair to buy. I wonder if they can be improved significantly by just changing the tubes.

Help me out here, guys.

Thanks,

-F

[Colin]

blame the Snell, some people love the soft, soft sound-

trust me, on big ole horns, those would have sounded VERY different!

[j-malotky]

F

I can assure you that MC 30's have NO lack of bass with Heritage. As a general rule any MC amp will not suffer with bass responce. I agree with the above post and can confirm first hand that the MC and Klipsch heritage sound great together.

As for tube glow - MC's do not drive the tubes hard at all. Tubes last forever on MCs.

Too bad you had a poor audition.

JM

[Allan Songer]

Snell?

YUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!

What you was hearing was very very expensive and very very crappy speakers . . . .

Your Khorns being driven by an ipod would sound better than the Snells driven by the MC30s.

[fgarib]

Hmmmm...

Thanks guys... But I still have a couple of problems.

A) How the heck do I audition the darn things?!?! I don't have a tube pre, so if I convince him to give them to me, I'd have to hook them up to my NAD SS pre, which would kill the sound. He's decided not to sell the CJ pre with it.

Can't think of a great lowball offer that would keep the negotiations going to get me a good price. He he...

Also, going to be going to Toronto in mid April. Would I be able to get Mc-30's there easily? I plan to be there for atleast 4 weeks.

-F

[edwinr]

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On 3/9/2005 1:39:58 AM fgarib wrote:

I'd have to hook them up to my NAD SS pre, which would kill the sound...

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Why do you say that? Maybe the NAD pre will sound just fine. Just because it goes against convention (s/s pre with tube power) doesn't mean to say it won't work.

[DAX616]

My experience with tube vs. ss is as you described. I have only auditioned to this point 11 watt amps like the fischer. High's and mid's sound great with tubes. In my opinion K horns are "top heavy" anyway if left unto themselves. They can be absolute sirens. The bass issue I am struggling with myself. I have heard mc's have good bass for a tube amp. Here's my advice, it's basically what I am doing now, get a quality tube set up with power( I have some dynaco mk111's from craig coming 60 watts per channel). Room issues aside, if you can"t get the level of bass you want bi amp with ss powering your woofer. ss power is cheap comparitively speaking ( check out qsc or crown).Tame your top end. Add to your system gradually, pick up nice pieces when the oppurtunity arises, more will come.K horns will give you good bass for most listening, rich and true. If you want "club" type bass go with a quality sub and beat that thing up. I have blown my woofers so be sure if you give them lots of power not to overdose.I believe they enjoy the headroom ss affords. Hope this helps.

Dax

[fgarib]

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On 3/9/2005 3:59:12 AM edwinr wrote:

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Why do you say that? Maybe the NAD pre will sound just fine. Just because it goes against convention (s/s pre with tube power) doesn't mean to say it won't work.

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Hmmm... Ok... now I'm really confused. It was my understanding from the vaaast reading I've done on this forum that in order to get the true rich sound, you would rather get a tube pre and ss amp rather than the other way around. I have been led to believe that the pre plays a much bigger hand by far in determining the quality and richness of the tube sound than does the amp itself.

I'm trying to find the few posts that discussed this but can't seem to find them while at work.

Am I wrong here?

-F

[fgarib]

Dax,

thanks for the response... Actually i was thinking of doing something right along those lines.

In fact, I have a nice NAD power SS amp (C230 I think) that I was thinking about biamping with sometime down the road.

But I'm still confused about whether or not I really need a tube pre to get the "complete picture" of the tube sound.

-F

[Myhamish]

Hi fgarib,

If you're going to be in Toronto for a month, check out this tube amp company. They're based in Ontario - about 90 miles west of Toronto - could be a possibility. And enjoy your trip. Hamish

- copy and paste -

http://www.idealinnovations.biz/

[Audible Nectar]

You CAN use a solid state preamp with your tube amps. That's not a problem. Many do, especially if they are upgrading one component at a time. I do recommend for many to investigate tube preamps, but you can use a SS pre in the meantime.

As for bass response: I have a pair of McIntosh 30's on Belle Klipsch. TRUST ME - these amplifiers have NO LACK OF BASS. It's deep, tight, and lively. And quiet? Not a sound or hiss that shouldn't be there. At 11 O'clock on the volume, I can barely hear hiss with my ear at the speaker. That's pretty quiet. One note of importance, though: MC-30's are 40-50 years old, and sometimes the capacitors can use replacement. The filter capacitor (the tall silver cylinder on the corner of an MC-30) can be responsible for flabby bass in an MC-30. If you have flabby bass from an MC-30 on Heritage Klipsch, I'll bet the filter caps are shot.

That's not a problem - in fact, if you do get the MC-30's, you'll want those amplifiers completely gone over/inspected by a McIntosh certified technician - or at minimum, someone who does know how to work on these amps. When I got mine, I had them serviced and brought up to spec. A properly serviced pair of MC-30's - even though they are 40+ years old - will still be good for many years of service. Keeping MC-30's in proper electrical condition will allow them to last for many more years. Mc built 'em good!

As for tube brightness/glow: MC 30 tubes do not glow as bright as many other tube amps I've seen. If they play music, you probably have a pair of amps that would be suitable for rebuild/restoration - which I always recommend to any new MC-30 owner. They may not need it, depending on the previous owner, but every newly acquired MC-30 should see a competent tech who knows McIntosh tube amps first.

They also sound as good as any amplifier I have ever heard on Heritage Klipsch....which is why I have them in the first place.

[DAX616]

fgarib,

First off, alot of the people who are posting have aquired their components over a period of time, learning from the experience of matching this to that. I am presuming this.I'm going through this myself.Read the threads on preamps.Unless you have a tube cd player, you are probably getiing ss amplification to bring your source to line level.Hook it up and see. Quality tube preamps with tone controls are pricey.You may have to work up to this. Modern SS preamps are cheaper and on paper have good characteristics, check it out. I have the reverse experience of having a tube preamp and ss amp right now. The highs are better. The tone is set by the preamp ( no tone controls)I'm locked out.I would say the ultimate flavor would come through your amp.It is the last in line before your speakers. Post your results.

Dax

[sunnysal]

those kind of listening tests are largely useless in deciding if a particular amp will sound good in your system. besides the speakers (which are NOT ideal tube loads) you had the preamp and biamp setup to contend with.

did you get an idea of what tube amps sound like? in some ways yes.

did you get any idea what those components would sound like with your speakers? not really.

did you get any idea what that amp would sound like in your system? none at all.

see if your friend can bring the amps over to your house to plug into your system...tony

[fini]

As far as purchasing equipment in Canada or the USA, I am sure many folks here would hold them for you if you were to purchase them (on eBay, Audiogon, etc.). As Tony said, hearing them in YOUR system is the only true way to judge them.

[oscarsear]

I had a similar problem with my Cary integrated. Discussed problem with the retailer and retubed...don't have a problem anymore. Not familiar enough with your system to suggest that this will solve your dilemna. Perhaps others better informed can digress on my input for you (and me). Best of all to you.

[NOSValves]

If the guy will allow you to bring the MC30 home for audition your SS pre will let you find out the truth. With your SS Pre your not going to get the entire picture but you will find the Bass in there quick, defined and deep (that is if the MC30 is working up to snuff). The MC30 will produce deep bass with your Klispch speakers all Mc tube gear does this well. These SS guys that try to say tubes can't produce authorative bass are just scratching for a excuse. You get things like well I tried a 11 watt fisher and it didn't have bass compared to my 300 watt SS amplifier. You want bass you have to buy a strong tube amplifier with good dampening factors. Heck even a 11 watt fisher produces some nice bass if working properly and your not pushing it past its intended operating range. Another absolute valid point is when auditioning vintage gear the results can vary wildly depending on the condition of the gear. If the PS caps are weak and ineffecient the bass will suffer.

Heck I had my VRD's down for a demo at one of the moderators of Audio Karma a week or so ago hooked up to his Audio Note AN-J speakers. I wound the VRD's up and he thought I was going to blow those woofers apart. He said he never seen them move like that LOL !!

Craig

[sfogg]

Craig,

" You want bass you have to buy a strong tube amplifier with good dampening factors. "

What do you consider a 'good' damping (tube amps can have a liquid sound but they don't really get woofers wet... factor?

The whole 'bass' thing comparing SS and tubes can get very confusing very quickly as people have different ideas on what 'good' bass really is.

For example there are absolutely people that will prefer amps that have lousy bass control... because the lousy control can tend to sound like it has more bass because the woofer isn't being controled as well and it is distorting and adding extra material that isn't in the recording. For people that like this they might describe an amp that has good control (tube or SS) as being lean, dry or maybe not as warm.

While OTOH those that like tight controlled bass would describe an amp such as the one above as being flabby or maybe dark.

For some (think boom boom cars) having a pounding midbass (around 120hz... near the resonant frequency of your chest) is what defines 'good' bass. For others it is a nice flat frequency response without resonances that extends very very deeply.

And of course to make everything more complex the amps can react and sound differently with different speakers. So an amp could easily sound flabby on what pair of speakers but nice and tight on another.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

Shawn,

I'm not sure what your point is here?

What I mean when I say good bass I mean it sounds as close as possible to "LIVE" real bass.

Of coarse each amplifier will react differently to different speakers ! But were talking about Heritage speakers aren't we?

Yes people like warm fuzzy, flabby bass. Why do you think there are so many Single ended devoted people and others that just love there vintage gear in its as is original condition ? No argument there if it sounds good to the person using the gear then it is good.

When someone compares a tube amplifier to a SS amp in the bass department I instantly figure they to like the "LIVE" real bass that I also love so a approach the subject with this preconceived notion.

Craig