Vinyl thoughts

[maxg]

Wolfram,

How do I tell you I think you are doing the wrong thing here - without telling you you are doing the wrong thing?

Obviously this is your system / your ears etc. but I really would be very surprised if any MM cartridge can really bring about the benefits of a good MC cartridge (assuming proper matching of arm / phono etc. for both).

Lets put it this way. What is the most expensive MM cart you know of? What is the most expensive MC cart you know of? Why the difference?

Now OK I know price is not always the perfect indicator but here I really fell that MC is the superior mechanism to get that last bit of organic (orgasmic?), fluid sound.

I have had a number of supposedly very good MM carts (culminating in the Clearaudio Virtuoso 2). If you read the reveiws of that cart they say something like "plays as well as a $2500 MC cartridge"

This is a barefaced lie!!! It plays nothing like any $1500 MC I know of - let alone $2,500.

Well that's it - I have had my say - and I could not let you go down this route without at least sharing my opinion. I hope - if you do go there - you prove me wrong, I just happen to doubt it.

Sorry

[Royster]

Dudai,

I find that my Cd transport and DAC set up sit idle more and more. I love that "something" that analog has. While I enjoy digital, I look at it like this. Digital is the equal of the wife getting a boob job. Functional,appealing at a glance, but lacking that "something" of naturals.

I love the Lyra helikon cart. Was maybe some of the best hifi $ spent in a while.

Thanks for the goove post. A refreshing breath in the digital smog of today.

[Royster]

Dudai,

Also look at the TRIGON Vangard II phono stage. It is German made is sells here in the USA for $475.00 or so. A really nice stage for the money.

[dubai2000]

Royster,

thanks for your nice comment. Yes, the Vangard is a pretty good performer. For a while I used to own their first model and for the price it was a steal.

Max,

I don't mind a differnt opinion at all. Believe me, until very recently I wasn't even thinking about MMs. But perhaps(!) this is a bit like other audio matters: magazines, reviewers have certain prefernces, certain products are 'in' for a number of reasons.

Hey, for how many years has it been said that tubes are an old-fashioned technology and horns only good for PA?

Now I am not saying MCs are crap (FAR FROM IT), not able to play fantasically (after all this ...Koetsu....is an MC....and I don't forget your Shelters or the 'basic' modern SPU I used to own), but somehow I feel ready to try something else. This might turn out to be a mistake (hence I am keeping my Rohmann), but I will never know unless I try (and I will also continue dreaming of......something with K )

So please keep on commenting because I don't mind different views...and I will let you know how things develop (though this will have to be done slowly ).

Wolfram

[Mallette]

One of the things not mentioned here is price/performance. Even if you throw a couple of grand or more at a TT/arm/cart, you will still come out ahead of digital...on software. In the DFW area, LP's at .50-5.00 abound in all categories, and occasionally you really hit paydirt as they really don't research very much. I can take a hundred bucks and and come home with a hundred hours of undiscovered delights. For someone who used to agonize for hours at the record store trying to decide which record I could afford that week, this is HEAVEN.

The only digital I buy are new releases of high regard musically and technically not otherwise available. Why should I pay 15-30.00 for a Messiah or Pink Floyd when I can get them on vintage vinyl for a tenth of that?

Granted, the supply of LP's in good condition will (and already is, to some degree) gradually decrease...but there is enough to last my time.

Dave

[dubai2000]

Dave,

I really envy you. For whatever reason second-hand LPs are hardly ever less than something like $6.50 and here we are talking about some obscure stuff...but who said that life is fair ?

Wolfram

[garymd]

Used vinyl continues to increase in quantity AND quality in this area but I guess that goes hand in hand. Seems more and more folks are dumping their LPs at the thrift shops. I'm at the point where I only pick up NM copies of LPs I don't already have or replacement copies if what I find is in better condition then my current copy.

Today I had some spare time and found about 12 LPs worth taking home. I came home from CA with about 30 in my suitcase from the used record shops around LA. Much better jazz selection there and at pretty reasonable prices. Mostly classic rock around here along with just about any pop or classical LP you could ever want for a buck or less.

[dubai2000]

BUT good for you

Wolfram

[Mallette]

Well, Wolfram, getting a decent beer and brat is bit of a chore in DFW. There is something to be said for anywhere.

In my case, there is no genre of music that I dislike completely, so I always come home with a box full of discs when I go hunting. I still have probably a hundred or more I've not had time to listen to, many of them still sealed.

So much music, so little time!

Dave

[garymd]

Wolfram,

Email a list of LPs you'd be interested in finding (if that's possible) and I'll keep my eye out. Today at the library I saw an entire shelf of DG LPs that all looked good as new. Loads of Angel LPs, boxed sets, etc. Living Stereos are a little harder to come by but occasionally I'll stumble across a pile or two.

[dubai2000]

Thanks Gary. For whatever reason DGs often do not sound as good as Deccas or EMIs (Angel for you?). But as long as it's Mahler or R.Strauss or any 19th century opera or Jazz (I love Ben Webster -especially when he plays ballads)...oh dear, such a list would be endless!!! Living Stereos? I told you....endless!!!!

Dave, I think you have reminded me of something in the fridge....cheers!

Wolfram

[Mallette]

Sheesh, Wolfram, rub it in why don't you? All I got is a fridge full of Lite. Did see a 2.5 liter keglet of DinkelAcker for 11.00 yesterday. Tempting, but being by myself up here in Missouri I'd either have to get very, very drunk or let it go bad since it only keeps for 24 hours or so once opened.

I agree about the DGG's, especially from the 70's on. Sound is often thin and lacking impact. Very strange, since I suspect the original recordings were excellent. Funny thing is that Archiv are generally awesome and as good a pressings as anyone ever released. I purchase them regardless of content just because I know they will be a delight to the ears.

Dave

[dubai2000]

Dave,

well, we all carry our burdens....if you excuse me saying so and the fridge was kind of disappointing, too....wasn't in the mood for wine....

I really wonder how good those DGs really were. Perhaps the company just had a way of marketing their products successfully? I remember that as a kid I really was impressed by their covers, somehow this yellow banner reminded me columns, of the top of an ancient temple. Plus in the old days when there still were record shops specializing in classical music (and I was a child) there were always these posters - mostly advertising for Karajan's latest recordings, so somehow the company seemed to be the embodiment of class.

I think I have read about those Archiv recordings before. It's just that when I started collecting LPs I was not really into pre-Beethoven stuff.

Addition: if I consider the only speakers corner reissue of a DG LP I have got (Tchaikovsky No.5) you might be right about original/early pressings. I guess they only became too big too fast.

Wolfram

[Mallette]

Well, without access to my collection since I am on the job in Missouri, I can't check for any others, however, the DGG disk of the Siegel-Schwall Blues Band/San Francisco Orchestra under Ozawa "Three Pieces for Blues Band and Orchestra" is a definite exception. Kick butt! Blows my mind every time I hear it and I wonder why it is not better known. Pressing is pretty light, but the sound is excellent and has the impact lacking in other DGG releases, especially with a bit of help from a DBX unit.

I know there are a few other DGG releases with good/great sound, but in general, the hype outweighed the fact.

OTOH, those DGG/Archiv releases are pretty much uniformly best in class. Too bad you aren't into early music! Chances are, you will be. I've finally learned there is no bad music that is well composed, well performed, and well recorded. Just uneducated ears (I am speaking of mine, not anyone elses). I collected a lot of stuff that did not appeal to me when I first got it. My brother sent me an Angel recording of the Schubert "Trout" quintet in the late sixties when he was stationed in Frankfurt am Main. Good thing I didn't care for it much, since we had a terrible old GE stereo console that recut anything played on it more than once or twice. I love it now, and listen to it too often.

Dave

[Marvel]

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On 3/21/2005 7:52:31 PM Mallette wrote:

Well, without access to my collection since I am on the job in Missouri, I can't check for any others, however, the DGG disk of the Siegel-Schwall Blues Band/San Francisco Orchestra under Ozawa "Three Pieces for Blues Band and Orchestra" is a definite exception. Kick butt! Blows my mind every time I hear it and I wonder why it is not better known. Pressing is pretty light, but the sound is excellent and has the impact packing in other DGG releases, especially with a bit of help from a DBX unit.

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Seigel-Schwall Blues Band! Saw them live at the Kinetic Playground in Chicago around '69. Unbelievable show. Maybe it was the acid. Whew, that brings back memories Dave.

Marvel

[Mallette]

Hmmm, Marvel...Somebody said "Those who claim to remember the sixties weren't there."

Anyway, I got to dig up that disk. Sometimes I think I am either the only person who bought one or the only person who still has one without too many seed burns to play.

It really is a trip, as it were.

Dave

[dubai2000]

Dave,

guess which LP will be played later today - the Siegel-Schwall/Ozawa disc! Boy, it's ages since that got a spin - definitely prior to any 'proper' stereo rig.

Actually this broadening of musical horizons I have experienced ever since getting Khorns and tube amps. When I say I am not really into early music I should have written that those LPs wouldn't be on top of any wanted list, but thanks to Larry C's. recommendation I got to know Monteverdi's 'Vespro della Beata Vergine' and I really love that piece. Same goes for Jazz. I tried many years ago, but either because of my lack of listening experience or the inferior stereo I had as teenager I never really got into that stuff. That's obviously different now . And this development will certainly not be stopped by future vinyl developments .

Wolfram

[edwinr]

I've recently noticed, sadly, that the price of second hand vinyl is starting to climb. The blame for this situation must rest entirely on the shoulders of those misguided souls, the turntable manufacturers who are making a comeback. These people are dumping the latest crop of high quality, low priced turntables on the market, which are snapped up by the very people I am having physical confrontations with over the LP bins at the local flea markets!

[dodger]

The problem in Rochester is obtaining NM or mint copies of vinyl. Most seem to just dump them.

But as costs were mentioned earlier in the thread, to me the prices for good TTs, arms and cartridges are obscene. Counting every factor of inflation and market, the prices are lewd.

I enjoy Ortofon. I have the 40. In 1984 it was $145.00. Even quadrupling the price does not bring the same quality.

As for the MCs sounding brighter, that has been noticed by me as well.

dodger

[edwinr]

There are a number of high quality, low cost turntables on the market, including those products from Project, Goldring and Rega. Then there are the supertables seemingly fashioned from endless supplies of acrylic and other exotic materials - and priced accordingly. I'm not sure that these supertables actually offer any better sound quality over their lower cost brethren.