The New World Economy

[Dylanl]

Kenratboy, maybe you need to work with some ethical business people. I have worked with Wal-Mart, Kmart, Toys R US and Lowes from a sales perspective. Wal-Mart claims to be the all American company and the small town savior and that is just a plain joke. You should see what they put companies through just to get products on their shelves.

I did not tell you to buy from small business or to get ripped off. I am just pointing out that you should see better service if anything from smaller suppliers and that is worth a little extra to me. If not shame on them because that is where they can shine and they might as well start bagging at Wal-marts check out line.

[TBrennan]

Michael---No, the Honda workers aren't scabs, they're simply non-union workers. Though shortsighted ones because without the existance of the UAW Honda certainly wouldn't pay as well as they do. Many non-union workers forget that in certain kinds of work it's the unions that set the bar for wages and working conditions and that employers must compete with union wages and conditions to get good help and keep the union away, especially in states like Ohio with a strong union presence.

So the Honda workers are getting a free ride on the UAW. Understandable on their part but regretable.

By the way, a scab is an outsider who crosses a picket-line to work; a strikebreaker. A fink is a union member who crosses the line. People who simply work without belonging to a union ARE NOT scabs. Just want to make that clear.

[kenratboy]

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On 3/27/2005 11:23:02 PM Dylanl wrote:

Kenratboy, maybe you need to work with some ethical business people. I have worked with Wal-Mart, Kmart, Toys R US and Lowes from a sales perspective. Wal-Mart claims to be the all American company and the small town savior and that is just a plain joke. You should see what they put companies through just to get products on their shelves.

I did not tell you to buy from small business or to get ripped off. I am just pointing out that you should see better service if anything from smaller suppliers and that is worth a little extra to me. If not shame on them because that is where they can shine and they might as well start bagging at Wal-marts check out line.

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Not sure what you are getting at, but big business by and large have taken care of me while I have been screwed by the small ones.

[Dylanl]

Lost in translation.

[Mighty Favog]

O.k. I'll jump in a little and go but here's my point.

Yes, in the begining unions had a very positive influence in making sure companies treated their employees fairly and with dignity. But nowadays I think unions have gone overboard. Demanding $XX.XX/hr. with so many days off or other exorbidant(sp) benefits. And NOBODY is allowed to work at XYZ Co. that is not union.

If all companies were union we would all be in the same boat as if there were no unions at all. We would all make more money but all things would cost more if we only bought union made products.

I'm not saying American union made products are better than American non-union or vice-versa because quite frankly, in most things I haven't seen a difference when I have extensive experience with both.

Go ahead, flame on. Because it's just an opinion.

Not that it matters but my father was union for 30 years and he never once blew the Union horn at me or anyone else, ever.

[damonrpayne]

I agree with Tom Blasing (flame away)

When I was in junior high we read a book, Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle". This illustrates the absolute need for unions during that era. I think we're a far cry from that now. I know I'm going to get blasted for this, but labor unions attempt to avoid the invisible hand of the marketplace. In my line of work I get whatever pay and benefits I can get on the open market, and that's as fair as I can expect. I'm also a spring chicken of not quite 30 yet who's made (if I may say so) a very good name for myself already and advanced much further in my career because I went out and got what I could in the marketplace. Isn't union payscale/promotion (forgive me if I'm wrong) based entirely upon seniority? That seems un-American to me, "Everyone gets the same so there's no need to work harder than anyone else"

Wal-Mart: Wal-Mart does some horrible things. 20% of ALL of China's exports are bought by Wal-Mart to sell to us. All that and more, but I don't hold walmart responsible for anything. Why? Its what we ask for. Here in America we want clean air, a clean environment, a future for our children but we are not willing to pay for anything made under those conditions. Things are made in Asia because it costs a lot of money to manufactur things without creating too much pollution. Shoes are made in singapor because 6 year old kids can't work 12 hour days here. Tawain dumps silicon runoff into is watertables so that my Intel Pentium is cheap, etc. WalMart is just giving us what we want. We want high wages and plenty for everyone but we're not willing to pay a little bit more to make that happen.

I pay more for a local restraunt that's not a chain.

I pay more for my coffee at a local shop that's not starbucks.

I pay a local accounting firm to do my taxes rather than let H&R block ship my personal information to India.

Despite all the bad, I want to end this rant on a postive note. I'll start another thread "let's talk about the good"

[colterphoto1]

Tom, I'm with you, was just too chicken to come out and say it. Like Social Security (go ahead and flame), I think Unions played a crucial role in this Country's development, but have little place in today's society. The problem is once programs like these get started, it's durn near impossible to wean people off of them. Lets' face it, wouldn't it be a better world if workers and management could just get along without pickets, strikes, etc.? Maybe that's too pie in the sky, just my .02 personal beliefs.

Michael

[damonrpayne]

Heh, it is too pie in the sky, but your point stands: there are a lot of industries where the management/employee relationship works every day without a labor union.

[dragonfyr]

A couple of quick observations:

... actually the deisel engine was designed to burn waste coal dust, but it certainly can run on refined vegetable oil! The down side to that is that refined vegetable oil costs more then deisel fuel! But it does smell fruity!

Isuzu is essentially Japanese Chevy & Mazda Japanese Ford (pardon the ever evolving % of ownership/control), and almost ALL Eurpean cars, BMW, Volkswagan, Volvo, Saab, et al. are Bosch under the covers. It only makes sense as the economies of scale reduce cost just as the reusability of programming 'objects' (at least in theory!) reduces cost the development time.

And all manufacturing is inexorably moving towards China, as not even the rest of the 3rd world can compete with their labor costs - and no, all factories there are NOT sweat/slave labor! On half of all computer related outsourcing to India is subsequently outsourced to China. And it is interesting to watch as the 'green' Cambodian manufacturers, etc., struggle to compete with China.

Oh well, in ~ 2020, China takes over as the world's largest economy.

[TBrennan]

This "unions used to be needed but aren't now" thing is stupid. Some of you fellas talk as if the nature of businessmen had changed, as though they were nice guys now. It hasn't.

Union workers make more than non-union workers who do the same job, that's ALWAYS a good thing, making more money rather than less. The fact that union workers make more in itself proves the need for unions, at least for those who want to work for more rather than less. Those of you who want to work for less are free to do so.

Nor do I apologize that unions manipulate the market; everybody seeks to do so, everybody seeks to further himself economically at the expense of others; that's the name of the game.

Seems there's a double-standard; when a white-collar worker makes out he's an American Success Story but when a blue-collar worker makes out he's "bad for the economy". Hypocrisy. I've met many white collar-workers who opposed unions because they were jealous that union blue-collar workers were doing better than they were, as though being white-collar entitled them to something.

Anyway I was union because it suited me, not because it suited anyone else. Anybody doesn't like that can kiss my fat Irish ***.

[damonrpayne]

Mr. Brennan:

I agree with your point that many white collar folks are jealous of unions. After all there's no accountant's union or computer programmer's union, and many people (my generation especially) grew up with the notion that going to college and climbing the corporate ladder would ultimately leave you better off that going into the trades. Not always true, of course, in fact I saw a statistic that a small percent of college graduates make more than someone working in the trades. Does that mean I think there should be an Accountant's Union? No. It also doesn't mean I'm willing to work for less, just that I think I can go out and get more on my own merit.

Your point about it "always being a good thing" that union workers make more is a double edged sword, as you point out when you say that everyone is just trying to get ahead. If _everything_ was unionized, and the market controlled _nothing_, then making more wouldn't matter one whit, because everything would cost more proportionate to everyone's artificially inflated salaries. In other words, the auto workers and teamsters etc. are only getting ahead at the expense of everyone without a union. Yes, everyone would get ahead at everyone else's expense if they could. Just calling a spade a spade.

[

[T2K]

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On 3/27/2005 4:35:50 PM colterphoto1 wrote:

Not to flame, but driving in Detroit, I couldn't help but notice the supply of Fords and Chevy's on the roads. Nary a Honda to be seen. Do these mostly blue-collar types really believe that they are supporting American workers by buying American brand names and eschewing Foreign names?

> I imagine that you're in the photography business. Imagine that I needed photography work done. You quote me your fee for the job. I check around and find that I can fly in a photographer from China and save lots of money. You work for $30 an hour and he works for .30 cents an hour. What person have I supported? What country will benefit from my dollars? I don't really car about you or your family, I have just saved lots of money for my family. Will your family suffer? Will other businesses/workers in this country where you would have spent my dollars suffer?

Those dumb blue-collar types are looking out for their own best interests, that is, their jobs and the jobs of their countrymen. Their actions benefit themselves, their friends-neighbors and ultimately their country.

Keith

[TBrennan]

"In other words, the auto workers and teamsters etc. are only getting ahead at the expense of everyone without a union. Yes, everyone would get ahead at everyone else's expense if they could."

Well yeah, that's what the economy is all about, isn't it?

What pisses me off is when people seem to think that unions have a duty to society at large, to others other than their own memebers. Nobody, especially Conservatives, expects economic players to have regard for anyone but themselves. Indeed, Conservative economic theory holds that a "hooray for me and **** you" attitude is actually beneficial to society.

So how come Conservatives want unions to justify their economic actions when they don't ask the same of businessmen? Like I said, hypocrisy. Probably founded in a secret fear that economic theory is actually a load of hogwash and that the economic system CAN'T work if everyone has power and can play.

Power, that's another thing, people resent the power unions give "mere" workers. I called multi-millionaire contractors by their first names and was treated with deference and respect by them (as I treated them). We sat at tables and hammered out deals and then relaxed, went out and had dinner and got drunk.

When I was steward on a job I often made demands; I didn't go to the boss hat-in-hand, knuckling my forehead; I walked in and demanded. Oh, I'll tell you, I had some real donnybrooks with some guys. Some I won and some I lost but I was a player, not some schnook grabbing crumbs.

Listen Payne, let's say you'd gone into the trades. Would you rather be a non-union guy with poor wages and benefits and no conditions or a union guy making double the money with good benfits and a pension that let you retire at 55 making more than working 40 hours a week? Now which situation would be in YOUR interest, hmmm?

[damonrpayne]

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On 3/28/2005 11:49:35 AM TBrennan wrote:

Listen Payne, let's say you'd gone into the trades. Would you rather be a non-union guy with poor wages and benefits and no conditions or a union guy making double the money with good benfits and a pension that let you retire at 55 making more than working 40 hours a week? Now which situation would be in YOUR interest, hmmm?

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If I had gone into the trades, I'd be trying to start my own business in whatever trade I'd chosen once I had it down.

Maybe you'll blow this off, but, let me ask you this. Do you not have to give up certain freedoms by joining a union? Do you not submit to a mostly or entirely Seniority based raise system and things of this nature? To play by their rules, etc? Lose the respect of your fellows if you can't afford to strike when its time to strike? If the answer is yes, then I'd rather work outside that system, I'd rather try to go get mine on my own merit. That's my American dream, the original one: entrepeneurialship, creating something new, doing something your way.

As for pension, I feel its MY responsibility to save for my retirement, not someone else's to do it for me. When people don't take charge of things like that, things like Enron happen.

[scott0527]

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On 3/27/2005 4:35:50 PM colterphoto1 wrote:

Not to flame, but driving in Detroit, I couldn't help but notice the supply of Fords and Chevy's on the roads. Nary a Honda to be seen. Do these mostly blue-collar types really believe that they are supporting American workers by buying American brand names and eschewing Foreign names?

My Honda Accord was built in Marysville Ohio, but I'm glad I didn't park it at the Detroit mall where I went shopping.

We should have been conserving since the oil embargo in 1977 (?), but noooo,

Michael

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I think a contributing factor is that so many people are employed by Ford and GM in the Detroit area and they received discounts on Ford and GM products of course.

[JJkizak]

When I went through history class in school they said that some of the things that got us out of the great depression were WW-II, Social Security (keeps money in circulation), banning banks from selling insurance and other related services, changing the rules of the stock exchange with the newley created SEC run by Joe Kennedy, Federal Income Tax, etc. Now we have banks selling insurance, SEC being monitored by the prosecuter of New York City because they are all crooks, and Social Security trying to be destroyed by a reformed alcoholic religious draft dodger who is bankrupting the country. When I was growing up in the 50's and 60's it was common knowledge that if you didn't want to go to Nam you joined the National Guard. My stepfather was an alcoholic and as soon as I saw the "big man" speak I said to myself we are in deep doo-doo.

JJK

[TBrennan]

Damon---You play by the union's rules but remember that you elect the people who make the rules and vote on many rule changes. A union empowers you as an employee.

Everybody made the same money yes, but the better workers made more money because they got more overtime and stayed longer on the jobs before being laid-off. And mind that the money we all got was better than non-union money. Plus the better workers are asked to move into management.

People are free to move into management you know, most of the management in the business I was in were ex-union members, indeed many still were and paid their dues, including some business owners. One of our contractors lives in a huge double in the Hancock Building, pays his dues every month and proudly displays a Boilermaker Local 1 license plate frame on his Lincoln.

I did pay for my own retirement, it's money that went into the pension rather than on the check. The Boilermakers Union runs it's own pension which is fully vested and one of the healthiest in the country. It's MY pension, not someone else's.

Note too that being covered by a pension hardly means that one cannot make additional financial arrangements for retirement. It's not like the one negates the other.

Since you intend to own a business I don't think you can really speak for employees, obviously you have different and competing interests.

[damonrpayne]

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On 3/28/2005 12:29:17 PM TBrennan wrote:

Since you intend to own a business I don't think you can really speak for employees, obviously you have different and competing interests.

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Sure, there's merit in your last statement. However, maybe I am still qualified to speak as an employee? I'm an employee now, _maybe_ I'll have employees some day. I sit around and pontificate quite a bit on what's reasonable for both sides. I agree to respectuflly disagree, different strokes and all that.

[TBrennan]

Fair enough Damon.

[T2K]

I'm a Union worker. Have been for 28 years. My employer requires that I work 27 days/nights a month. If necessary, I can take off 3 days a month. Although my employer does not encourage me to take off those 3 days a month, those off days are there in case I need them.

I'm on call 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I work nights, weekends and holidays. I usually work over 12 hours a day, sometimes as much as 16 hours a day. Can't really call it day work because I often go to work in the afternoon and get off the next morning. I work outside, no matter the weather. Anyone ever been working and see a tornado go overhead, destroying homes and businesses just a stones throw away? I have. Anyone ever stayed out of town Christmas eve and Christmas day? I have.

I can visit my employers site and and access their info regarding my work history. Their records show I worked 429 days last year. I would have worked more but I was sickly last year.

My working conditions have deteriorated over the last 15 or so years. The start of this slow deterioration coincides with Reagan's election and his statement to Union workers that they could either work or quit. Large corporations picked up the ball and ran with it. Now, just a few years from retirement, the company would like to eliminate my job. Of course, they will and are hiring younger people for less pay and no job security. The only thing stopping them from getting rid of me is my Union. Should enough jobs be elininated I imagine my retirement could be threatened. But then, other working Americans would pay that, just as all of us will pay should GM fail.

To give you a little history I will tell you that the remaining workers are pulling the same load, in fact productivity is way up, after 60% of the workforce was eliminated 20 years ago. Later, the company used the same old line that they needed pay concessions to stay viable. We gave in. The CEO has earned at least 100 million dollars in the last decade. That's the amount that one could calculate using available figures. That does not include other hidden pay.

This outfits efforts and practices recently cost them what is estimated to near 1 billion by the time the dust settles. It also cost innocent lives. Of course, you can see by the working conditions that the company doesn't give a $hit about their employees. Why would they care about innocent civilians?

There's lots more but who cares? If anyone here really believes that most corporations in the US gives a $hit about them and their family then that person is full-o-$hit. I do and will continue the good fight for what is good for lowly blue collar workers in this country knowing that my efforts and the efforts of my contemporaries will benefit many brillaintly educated white-collar workers that don't have a clue and will harbor no appreciation for my efforts and the efforts of those before me.

This country is going to hell in a handbasket. I hope our children appreciate our concerns as we go about our daily lives doing whatever is good for ourselves in the here and now.

Keith