jason577 Posted August 26, 2001 Share Posted August 26, 2001 Hello, Every time I listen to music with my Legends (KLF 20 & KLF C7 - no surrounds) it sounds extremely harsh. Ive owned these speakers for over 6 months now and they still are harsh. I have just now been able to describe the harshness. It is not anything specific that stands out, rather it is just an underlying sound that is there. My ears get worn down and begin to hurt after just 2 songs. I have no problem when watching movies, just when listening to CDs (this happens with all CD's, not just old or poor quality ones) Im powering them with a Denon 2801 and have Monster bulk speaker wire (the $1.50/ft kind). I have a Toshiba 3109 DVD player that I also use to play cd's and it's connected by an optical cable. I have tried using a coax cable, but it does not make a difference. I turned down the treble, it did not help either. Any suggestions on what's causing this and how to get rid of it???? THANKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Workinger Posted August 27, 2001 Share Posted August 27, 2001 Jason, bi-wire your speakers and see if this smooths out the sound. Let us know your reaction. Cheers, Bill W. Klf-20s (mains) C-7 (center) RS-7/white (rear surrounds) Rotel 1095 (200X5) Lexicon DC-2 (preamp) ONKYO 444 (to power side speakers for Logic 7) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wired1 Posted August 27, 2001 Share Posted August 27, 2001 I actually think that the harshness you hear is signature to the KLF line. I went to my dealership and listened to them and found the same quality in all of them. I even tried listening with different amps and they still had the same sound. I sure hope I'm wrong but I think you may have to live with it... Paul ------------------ wired1@ameritech.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyp Posted August 27, 2001 Share Posted August 27, 2001 Jason, I think you should try and borrow and good quality CD player from a friend and fellow Texan and try it on your system. I have heard some complain similarly when they use their DVD as a music source. ------------------ John Packard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason577 Posted August 27, 2001 Author Share Posted August 27, 2001 Thanks for everyone's help. I actually posted this in the Technical Forum also, if anyone is interested in more feedback. I think it may be the CD player as many people have suggested. Hopefully I can borrow or audition one soon. I wanted to clear up that the harshness I heard was like an underlying sound that wore down my ears - it is really difficult to describe. I think that the KLF's have an inherent "brightness" to them, but the sound Im hearing is different from the brightness. I dont mind the brightness, and it actually has mellowed out some due to wear-in and the receiver, but the harshness is unbearable. Thanks again for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 check my post in tech.?'s b4 you get a cd player! avman. ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center sony strda-777ES receiver NEW! sony playstation 2! dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 35"tv panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire surrounds and a 'teens sub coming! KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shock-Late Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 I won't get a lot of friends by saying this but i have to: first, get a TRUE CD-player, and a GOOD one! No DVD player can even come close to a good CD player. The more so if you use an optical interconnect; you now use the receiver's internal N/A converter, wich is maybe good for movies but certainly not very good for music...I would buy a CD player with a good internal DAC and connect it to an analogue input of the receiver. If it isn't enough, maybe another amp is calling for...a true hi-fi, stereo amp, with music in mind...I like dolby digital too, but frankly for music you need a stereo amp, from an audiophile brand. I use Musical Fidelity, and i'm very happy with the sound (with la scalas). But before you ditch the amp, go for a CD player. The one I use is relatively cheap and works very well. It's a Kenwood DP7090. It uses eight Burr Brown PCM1702 in its DAC and costs a little over $500 i think. I use it with Nordost Flatline "Solar Wind" interconnects ($120?) with great success. Have fun! ;-) Frans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted August 28, 2001 Share Posted August 28, 2001 hey shock-late! what's a n/a converter?? ------------------ 1-pair klf 30's c-7 center sony strda-777ES receiver NEW! sony playstation 2! dishnetwork model 7200 dishplayer satellite receiver/digital bitstream recorder pioneer dvd player sharp 35"tv panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner monster cable interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire surrounds and a 'teens sub coming! KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesteel Posted September 2, 2001 Share Posted September 2, 2001 Not being a fan of the newer Klipsch stuff (I've got Chorus' and Forte's), or knowing much information about your setup, here's some of what I've experienced with harshness: If you're too close to a horn speaker, its going to sound harsh, sometimes terribly harsh. How close is too close? It depends on a lot of factors; I don't like being closer than 12 feet, but 15-20 feet is ideal. Additionally, since horns are so directional, just a few inches side to side can make all the difference, especially if you're too close. That's one reason the little satelite cone type speakers are so popular, they radiate sound (rather than propel it like horns) so even though they lack clearity, its easier to get a smooth sound. Many people just don't have the room to make horn-loaded speakers sound good. Generally Denon's Receivers are not too bright, but some others are just not a good match for horns, though its a salt-to-taste thing. Many DVD Players have good Digital to Analog Converters (DAC's) and sound better than cheap CD Players. But check the specifications on your stuff. I've been using a Sony 400 disk CD Changer, and its 1-Bit DAC finally got the best of me. So I added a good after-market 24-Bit DAC (MSB Link DAC) and the vocals and sharp electric guitar notes that were notorious for harshness, are actually enjoyable now. As far as speaker cable and interconnects are concerned, unplug all your stuff and take the cover off of your components, then look inside your speakers sometime. See all those TINY little wires? Unless you're running 50 feet from one component to the next, most of that high dollar stuff is PURE nonsense. "Don't Bi-Wire, buy speakers!!!" This message has been edited by Bluesteel on 09-02-2001 at 07:49 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morg Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 I own a pair of KLF 20's myself and i must say they arent near as bright as the reference series. I had the RF 3's first and have sold them for the KLF 20's. It is a day and night difference between the 2. The 20's sound very warm. As everyone has mentioned earlier, i think the cdp may make a difference. I am currently using the new AH Njoe 4000 tube cdp and it sounds wonderful. By the way i am from Brenham, Texas, if your close your welcome to come by and listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMIN Posted September 3, 2001 Share Posted September 3, 2001 My Klf 10's did the same thing to me. All I had to do is buy a pair of Klf 30's. Perhaps your placement is a factor. BTW, I think the above post has it backwards. The Legends smoked the metalic, tinny, break up as soon as it gets loud RF 3's to me. But that's just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted September 4, 2001 Share Posted September 4, 2001 dean, still got a few of those factory type interconnects at a good price.They should warm up your RB's and remove the tinnyness. Need a white KSP-S6 grill? Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted September 4, 2001 Share Posted September 4, 2001 Jason - I don't know where in TX you live but if you are in the DFW area I would be willing to help you with some component swaps to see if it is hardware related. Laters, ------------------ FOR SALE OR TRADE COMPLETE R*3 SYSTEM FOR 3 HERESY'S Main System - Cornwalls (L/R main) RC-3 RS-3's (white) SVS 20-39CS Harman Kardon AVR 510 Hafler P505 (running sub) ProMedia 4.2 v400 for PC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morg Posted September 4, 2001 Share Posted September 4, 2001 Interesting reply Deang, My wife could not even listen to the RF-3's because they were so bright and now since i have the KLF 20's she listens for hours. Maybe you could explain to her how the RF's arent as bright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buylow Posted September 5, 2001 Share Posted September 5, 2001 My wife (and I) say the same about the RF-3's. Harsh and Bright. I'm still trying to find a cure......... Any input is appreciated. ------------------ Mains: RF-3 Center: RC-3 Rears: RS-3 Sub: KSW-12 A/V Receiver: Yamaha HTR-5250 DVD Player: Yamaha DV-6280 CD Player: Yamaha CDC-506 VCR: Toshiba TV: Toshiba 55" Projection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted September 5, 2001 Share Posted September 5, 2001 Woman has a greater sensitivity to high frequency sounds than Males. Thus they like music softer than we do. Turn the volume down (ughh!) and try pointing the speakers directly into the room rather than at the listener. You can also turn down the treble control (ughh!) High frequency harshness can also be reduced by absorption heavy curtains, overstuffed furniture, heavy carpeting, acoustic tiles and by diffusion panels (usually work best at the point of first reflection). Horns produce highs with a lot of clarity including the metallic clarity of CDs and solid-state amplification. HT-1 Klipsch Heritage System (music oriented) Klipschorns w/ ALK crossover upgrades 4 Klipsch LaScalas (surround & rears) Heresy components in custom cabinet /monitor stand (center) Panasonic 32 Monitor W/ component video input 3 Sony CX400 CD changers Sony CX-200 CD Changer MSB Technology Digital Director w/ jitter reduction Nirvis DXS digital controller (auto selection of whatever changer is playing) Nirvis Slink-e computer interface Nirvis jukebox software (downloads net cd info, album covers& lyrics- programs & controls changers searchable for songs, artists, albums). Nirvis CDJ (CD Jukebox Software) Monster 5000 Power Center Sony Viao Laptop Computer Sony S530D DVD Player Sony 798HF VCR Sony XA1ES CD player Sherwood HX-PRO dual cassette deck Dynaco PAS4 stereo preamp W/ Tesla Tube upgrades (also outputs to HT2) Technics SL3300 DD Turntable w/ Shure cartridges Outlaw 1050 6.1 A/V Receiver (Dynaco inputs directly to amp section) Perpetual Technologies P1A Digital Correction Engine (jitter reduction, 16 to 24 bit conversion, future speaker frequency correction, and room acoustic correction ) Perpetual Technologies P3A DAC ( plus 44.1k to 96k CD upsampling) Klipsch KSW-15 sub (for DVD LFEs ) Klipsch LF-10 sub Phillips Pronto TS2000 Programmable Remote Scientific American Explorer 2000 Home Communications Terminal X10 computerized lighting controls Radio Shack Wireless Remote Control Extender Cables: Onix , MSB, Monster, AR., Iced Purple, RS Gold Monster Bi-wire speaker cables.(Khorns) HT#2 Klipsch THX System (movie oriented) 4 Klipsch KT-LCR THX Speakers 4 Klipsch RS-3s (side & rear surround) 2 Klipsch KT-DS THX Surrounds 10 Linaem Tweeters Outlaw 1050 6.1 A/V Receiver (Dynaco inputs directly to amp section) Monster 3000 Power Center Sony X111 ES CD Player Sony 775HF VCR Sony STR-G3 (supplemental amplification for extra speakers) Toshiba 61 High Definition TV Sony NS700 Progressive Scan DVD Toshiba 4205 DVD/ CD Changer Klipsch SW-12II Sub Klipsch LF-10 sub Sony AV2100 remote Scientific American Explorer 2000 Home Communications Terminal X10 Computerized Lighting Vibrapods (vibration isolation) RS Gold , Monster, Iced Purple, AR Cables Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWMIN Posted September 5, 2001 Share Posted September 5, 2001 I must say that I have never heard the RB 5 just the RF 3's and they were anything but great to me. As you pointed out with different acoustic perception, It's entirely subjective and depends on the person. For me though, I don't know how to give a better discription of how the RF 3's sounded to me when played on a Denon 5700 compared to the Legends. When I a-b them against the Legends the coloration seemed very clear but alone at first I liked them yet my wife didn't. That's when I a-b them against the Legends that I didn't even want to hear because of the price. That's when the imperfections really stood out to me. Perhaps I was lucky to have something to compare them with. As for me being in the minority, you may be correct as the Ref line has been a winner for Klipsch with tons of sales and I would have probably taken them home over everything else in the room if not for the KLF's. Perhaps someday you will have a chance to A-b them. If so I would like to have the chance to read your well written opinion as given above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Palm Posted September 6, 2001 Share Posted September 6, 2001 You would be surprised at the amount of CDs that sound terrible. Everytime I think something is wrong with my system I listen to aShefield Labs CD. THis will really let you know how good your speakers sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 18, 2001 Share Posted September 18, 2001 The best ways to "remove" harshness is to try tube amplification or tube preamps. The KLF30's are in no way harsh,some solid state makes them sound harsh. The RF-3's are a bit harsh,if one cant change the amp or preamp then cables are the only way to soften up the sound.No miracles here,so spending too much should be avoided. In my main music only system I have an Audio Research tube preamp and NO speakers ever sounded agressive. And I tried from Klipsch,Thiel to Dynaudio.Each speaker makes has it goals and priorities and still no speaker sounded harsh. Often harshness comes from the preamp and/or amp.Even El Cheapo CD players are not HARSH,they may lack definition,detail but harsh?! I have yet to hear one as bad. The greatest upgrade or cure could veryb well be a tube preamp.Did magic for me. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason577 Posted September 24, 2001 Author Share Posted September 24, 2001 Thanks for all the replys! (I posted this also in the Technical Forum) Thanks for everyone's help and I am sorry I have not had an update. I've been very busy lately and have not had the time to deal with this problem I tried every setting combination with the DVD player and receiver and still no change. Then it dawned on me that my room acoustics are horrible. The walls are sheetrock and are painted with a semi-glossy paint. They are very reflective and if I snap my fingers or clap I can hear a wicked echo that is painfull to the ears. I have only been in this apartment for a few months, and never noticed it before. I am farily certain that this is the main problem. Hopefully, when time and money permits, I can begin experimenting with sound dampening. Does anyone have suggestions for inexpensive, yet effective dampening materials? I have seen professional studio foam, but it's on the expensive side, would egg crate foam suffice? Thanks again for everyone's help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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