LOMC vs. MM vs. MC?

[Piranha]

All the cart options are still very confusing to me. I just bought a Blueberry Xtreme. Does this mean if I get a VPI Scout, Scoutmaster or a Basis 1400, 2001 that I will need to/should have Mark install the Cream option for me? If I get the Cream option, will it only work with a LOMC cart? And if that is the case, would that be only one specific cart that I identify to Mark in advance? I only ask this because I seem to remember Mark telling someone that he needed to know the output voltage of his cartridge. My head is spining just thinking about all this stuff.

Can anyone explain in laymans terms what the differences are with each type of cartridge? What are the benefits and downside of each.

I am sorry to beat a dead horse, but I'm just really confused/ignorant about this TT stuff. I want to make sure I buy the right combo without spending my kids college funds. Will I be able to get a decent setup that's complete for less that $2500-3000?

^_HELP!!!!!

[ben.]

Tom, don't sweat it.

MM vs. MC: really, that refers to a general design difference. MM stands for Moving Magnet, where a magnet moves within a coil to induce an electrical signal. MC stands for moving coil, where a coil moves in a magnetic field to generate the signal. In and of themselves, these categories don't dictate what is necessary to adequately reproduce their signals. MM tend to be higher output in general, but there are HOMC as well (High Output Moving Coil), like my Benz Glider H2.

This brings us to LOMC. It denotes a Low Output Moving Coil design. Here is where you would need the Cream option, and Mark would need to know some specifics if possible to install the proper transformer for the intended cartridge.

[Piranha]

So Ben, if I understand you correctly, at a very high level mind you, I would have more options available to me with a MM or MC cartridge. Can any table accept a LOMC cartridge as well as a MM or MC?

Do you happen to know if there a big sonic benefit in using a LOMC vs. a MM or MC?

Thanks for your reply and time.

[ben.]

Well, the consensus (which is rare in audio) seems to be that lower output carts tend to sound much better. The downside is much higher cost. The table/arm combos you're considering are worthy of high quality carts, and would work admirably with any good cart design, be it MM, or either LO or HO MC.

I'd really suggest you go with a High Outout MC or MM at his stage of the game. To drop another couple grand into things in the cart/step-up portion is beyond reason, I think. Diminishing returns really come into play here. Would you hear the difference? I'd think so, but that can come a bit down the road when you've got a firm grasp on what you're hearing with all the other new stuff. I think it's make you appreciate the investment that much more when (or if) you move up to the next level of cartridges. Mark is more than reasonable with upgrades, too, so I wouldn't worry about ordering the BB X new with the Cream.

[ben.]

Tom, I just thought of an automotive analogy that may clarify things. Think of a vehicle available with a 4, 6, or 8 cylinder engine. The car can operate just fine with any of those motors, but the associated gearing would need to be appropriate, and each drivetrain would have its strengths, weaknesses, and price/performance ratio.

[Piranha]

Thanks Ben. Your remarks make a lot of sense and are very helpful.

[nicholtl]

Tom, have you started your vinyl collection yet? Do you know of Amoeba Music and Aaron's Records? Those are probably the 2 best record stores in town...

[LarryC]

Tom, you have a PM.

Larry

[Allan Songer]

And then, of course there is always the option of an in-line step up transformer! That way you could use the standard Blueberry with your MM cartridge and use the step up with the LOMC. Of course, the good step ups will cost you more than the "Cream" option I'm afraid. But in the USED market you can probably come up with something good for not a lot of money. This onw was very weill thought of back about 15 years ago:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=67807&item=5777900301&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

I use a variety of Ortofon MC SPU cartridges which all require a step-up with my McIntosh C22. Some have a tranformer built into the headshell while others require an in-line step up. I used to use an old Ortofon T-20 step up, but a few months ago I bought this kit from Bent Audio. For $700 you end up with a pair of these high-end step ups, something on par with the $3000-$5000 Ortofons and Audio Notes. At least thats what they have me BELIEVING, as I have NEVER HEARD a $5000 step up transformer. This kit is a snap for just about any hack with a few hours of soldering experience It's a DIY project that is not NEARLY as daunting as an amplifier:

http://www.bentaudio.com/index2.html

[TheEvan]

I have an old Fidelity Research step-up transformer I'll never use if somebody is interested. Super cheapo.

[Guy Landau]

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On 5/30/2005 9:19:05 AM Allan Songer wrote:

I bought this kit from Bent Audio. For $700 you end up with a pair of these high-end step ups, something on par with the $3000-$5000 Ortofons and Audio Notes. At least thats what they have me BELIEVING, as I have NEVER HEARD a $5000 step up transformer.

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These transformers are excellent for their price but are not as good as the Audio-Notes.

The Jensen transformers are great too, and cost much less.

[Allan Songer]

You are undoubtedly correct, but considering what equipment I am using I think these are good enough! They are absolutely an improvement over the old Ortofon T-20 and I am quite happy with them. I am using cartridges that I probably paid an average of $150 each for (before retipping) and a turntable that set me back about $200 and an arm that I traded a "Charlie the Tuner" for! In other words, these step-ups set me back more than the TD-124 and the SME 3012 COMBINED!!

All I can say is that these kits are a good deal.

I would love to hear the Blueberry some time--I guess I blew when it was making it's national tour.

[J.4knee]

Tom use this as a guage:

dB = 20 log(Preamp Input sensitivity rating/Cartridge output)

In my case 20 * log(2.5/1.6) = 3.9 db means my cartridge output is almost 4 db weaker than a normal input signal. However my cart test at 2.2mv vice the 1.6 mV it is rated at so I only have a 1.1 dB deficiency, which is very livable. Props to maxg for pointing this out to me. With a LOMC you will need a step up transformer or Marks Cream option for sure.

Here is the proof: with a pre having a 2.5 mV input sensitivity and a typical LOMC output at around say .4 mV output you have a signal <20 log (2.5/.4) = 15.92 dB> below the input level needed by your phono input.

I went with a decent HOMC cartidge, simple matter of economics and the law of diminishing returns.

[Parrot]

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On 5/30/2005 12:21:58 AM Piranha wrote:

I want to make sure I buy the right combo without spending my kids college funds.

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Don't sweat it, Tom. Kids benefit more from college when they have to work their way through. They'll thank you eventually for teaching them about hard work and sacrifice.

[pierceb]

Good question Piranha, and good answers from the rest of ya. I wondered the same thing, and now have learned something new today.

Thanks,

-PB

[maxg]

Christ this thread is all over the map. Forget all the science and lets just go practical for a minute.

Arm:

As, I think Mark, pointed out the synergy between cartridge and arm is extremely important - you can go horribly wrong here - but there are some relatively safe options.

It is no accident that the RB230 / 300 / Project 9 and other common arms are all medium mass.

Medium mass arms will work with 95% of cartridges out there straight off the bat. A few of the higher compliance MM carts (Grados are famous for this) will not work very well and will "dance" across the record but otherwise you are pretty safe here.

Cartridges:

With the arm out of the way we now get to chose our cartridge type. There are really only 2 (MC and LOMC being the same approach - but LOMC has a smaller coil to move).

MM - generally the less expensive cartidges (nominally $30 to $500). Further cost benefit is that they create higher outputs and so need smaller gain stages or phono stages.

MC - from midway up the MM cost ladder to the cost of a mid-sized new sedan. Outputs vary from almost that of an MM to not very much at all. The higher cost ones output about the same power as a flea's fart. Need some serious phono stage amplification. That costs too.

Most audiophiles feel the MC cart is the high end choice. Take that as you will. If you get a medium mass arm you will be able to migrate from one to another and back again without too much worry.

Now we have covered all that - go buy a Denon 110 or 160 - honestly -great value for money. Later, when you get yourself a cream option - get a 103 - better value for money still. Then, when your brain explodes - get a Shelter 501, 901 or 90X.

Unless you want to drop $12,000 on a Clearaudio Insider Reference....

[AndyKubicki]

Hey guys,

Record stores were mentioned here and I found one in Newport Beach that has a ton of records. I know that's a drive for you guys, but here it is. Price ranges from about $2 to audiophile for around $30, though he usually has a 30% off sale posted. I've bought stuff there in the $5-$15 range and was surprized to find the condition is quite good. The advantage is that you can actually look at what you are about to buy. Allan, I don't know if he has the collector stuff you are usually after, but give me a small list and I can check it out next trip. The name is Goat Hill Records and I believe the address is Costa Mesa, but I will n eed to look that up to verify. Email me if interested...

kubickiandy@adelphia.net

[Piranha]

Thanks for all the great information guys. Please keep it coming. It's an extremely useful education for me and I am sure others as well.

What kind of arms and carts are all you guys using anyway? What would you get it you had an extra $3000 at your disposal?

[LarryC]

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On 5/30/2005 6:54:30 PM Piranha wrote:

What kind of arms and carts are all you guys using anyway? What would you get it you had an extra $3000 at your disposal?

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Using:

• TT: Basis Ovation/Debut platter (equivalent of the 2500)

TA: Basis Vector tonearm

Cart: Transfiguration Temper V

One suggestion:

• TT: Basis 1400, used

TA: Rega or better, used

Cart: Transfiguration Spirit (you may have to add a Cream outside the budget)

• Or: Benz MC Silver (Craig), Glider (Ben)

I'd have to check on whether this mix would go together well. Read your PM?

Larry

[Piranha]

Thanks Larry, I did get your PM. Thank you. I have been trying to respond to you all day via PM. For some reason it won't let me and I don't have your email address. I'll keep trying until the BB lets me PM you.