Best Pre/Pro for HT AND 2 Channel?

[Kriton]

OK, now look ya'll...I have been on other forums reading extensively, and this thread just seems to run into a free for all, with all kinds of stupidity and bad spelling. So before I even ASK my question, I will throw my "mea culpa" in, and bow to the greater wisdom of all.

Now, the question...I am looking for an HT pre/pro; I want a kick *** DTS/DD decoder that can separate the hell out the channels, giving me a wild 3D ride (when the poor audio of most DVD's will allow), using all Klipsch or frankly any good 5.1/7.1 speakers (I have RF-7's front, and Synergy rears - which I will be upgrading very soon). THEN, I would like for the thing to play music CD's relatively well too, as I am not/do not have the time or the money or the space to have my tube reference monster monoblocks up stairs and the home theater in the basement, as it seems most of ya'll do (we don't even have basements in Texas, shifting soil).

Things I would like to talk about:

Speaker equalization (EQ) (why should I care?)

Bass management for 2 channel (why don;t they all have this and who actually DOES?)

Reliability/Customer service

Upgradeability

**Best sourround sound** (aka what formats matter/are they changing soon/can the pre/pro be upgraded?)

Balanced v non-balanced outputs (I know about the noise, but really, does it make that much of a difference?)

Remote quality (Not a deal buster, but come one)

Second (and third and fourth) zone capability (who cares or uses this?)

**Best bang for the buck (aka WAF factor)**

Now I will say that I have been looking at two apparently different spectrum ends, because, well I am funny that way...The 990 Outlaw, and the Sunfire Theater Grand IV..one is much more expensive than the other, but I have the 400~7 Sunfire amp (no cracks about Ohms law, now), and the matching component thing appeals to me...I read the Audioholics flaming/burning/crashing review of the Sunfire TGIII, but I have seen nothing anywhere on the TGIV (to see if any of the concerns were addressed?)

Other pre/pros I have heard about...Anthem, Lexicon, HK, Parasound...good grief! Prices all over the board...would like to keep as low as possible while delivering necessary ride.

Could someone narrow it down for me? What do you think?

BB

[JTA]

If you have the funds for it, the McIntosh MX135. I think that should cover everything you are looking for. It apparently has the same circuitry as the C45, which is rated among the best stereo pre-amps out there. Pair it with an MC207 and you have yourself probably the best processor/multichannel amp combo available.

[Fish]

Well...there's good/better and way better,how much money you want to spend?In the new under 2k I found the Rotel 1068 to be outstanding in just about all areas,great 2ch,great surround,easy upgrades on computer,easy set up/bass management even on high rez,simple to use zone 2(which is a must for me outside)and just a well thought out control on the fly.More money will get you more but for about $1500 I couldn't find anything to compete,all imo.So,I'd put it on a list to audition unless you're lookin to spend more.One other thing,you should take into consideration whatever you buy will soon be outdated and you will take a loss,how much do you want to lose?

[J.4knee]

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On 6/10/2005 1:14:49 PM JTA wrote:

If you have the funds for it, the McIntosh MX135. I think that should cover everything you are looking for. It apparently has the same circuitry as the C45, which is rated among the best stereo pre-amps out there. Pair it with an MC207 and you have yourself probably the best processor/multichannel amp combo out there.

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I agree whole-heartedly with this recommendation. I had a MX-135/MC206 demo a couple weeks ago and it was spectacular. The channel separation you crave is what this beast has. Two-channel operation was equally stirring when mated to a MC 602. It has a very good channel calibration, bass management, DTS/DD decoding. This thing is the bomb. But it cost's one heck of lot of money. It has both balanced and unbalanced ouputs, its multizone capable. It is IMO the ultimate HT pre/pro that I am saving for and will for quite some time too. I have demos HALO - another impressive option, but the McIntosh has it hands down. I have never demoed Anthem or Krell.

[Frzninvt]

Don't forget Aragon Stage One, B&K Ref 50 S2, NAD T163, Athem, or Fosgate Audionics.

[Kriton]

OK, for the sake of argument, lets say, between $1k (990) and $3.5k (Sunfire)...that is alot of range, and features that could fall in the middle.

Tell me what you think about the various models, makers, not just a list please. I can find lists, I need feedback from folks who have owned, heard, compared, bought...these things. No trying to be rude, just wasn't a lot of help.

Outlaw takes a stomping everytime I pick-up a thread on them over at AVS, etc. Nobody talks about the Sunfire, I hear good things about the B&K (but nothing specific), I have heard the Aragon line is going away (and that there amps lack substance, so how are the pres?), no specifics on the NAD or the Anthem, and I have heard only peripheral comments about the Halo ("I LOOOOVE my Parasound Halo...") but no comparisons, reasons, support at all.

McIntosh is super stuff, a little out of my price for a pre, any other suggestions and approximate street price? Also, if there are devices and brands to stay away from, tell me, so I don't waste my time!

Thanks,

BB

[Frzninvt]

I'll answer any questions you want on the NAD T163 as that is what I am using. Very musical! Great 2-channel operation, all formats available, dual subwoofer outputs, upramp capability from 5.1 to 7.1 and can be done on the fly, center, sub and surrounds levels can be adjusted on the fly. Works great for me! I had a B&K Ref 50 for about 10 days and did not care for its functionality, sound was great though!

[SteelerFan]

I was in the same boat you are, I wantd something for home theater that would also work terrificly well for 2 ch duty. That's why I ended up with the McCormack MAP-1. It is just a 6ch version of their highly regarded RLD 2 ch preamp. It does not do any decoding on it's own, it just passes the pure signal on. Your DVD player does all of the HT decoding.

[SilverSport]

I have an Outlaw Audio 950 Pre-Pro with the 7100 amp...I like the sound with my Heritage Heresys...I am VERY happy with it for HT which was its intended use...I have Nakamichi for 2 channel and soon hope to have a Vintage McIntosh 1900 for 2 channel...Outlaw has a new 990 which is getting good reviews.

I got the 950 for $699 which was a smokin' price and this Pre-Pro is very well thought of as a Sherbourne and an Atlantic Technologies (?) but when it has the Outlaw name and costs FAR less aparently it is trashed.

Now, there are some here who have actually tried it and not liked it and I respect their opinion but it is their opinion, I like it.

I think the new 990 is similar to a Sherwood Newcastle product but I don't know the product number...check out http://ubb.outlawaudio.com for more info (predictably it will be pro their product but look up "gonk"...he has tried and reviewed several items from other manufacturers too)

Good hunting,

Bill

[Kriton]

Thanks for the replies!

I had read a responsive thread on here I beleive about the 990, and that the into price was awesome given the feature set, etc. If anyone has one, do you still feel the same way? I also heard folks asay that it was too ugly to look at over at the AVS forum, but then they say a lot of stuff ...over...there.

I have a set of Klipsch Cornwall II's that are sporting Crites crossovers and my new RF-7's will be sporting new Dean's as soon as I can find the time to be home more than 10 minutes (which I unfortunately will have to spedn making babies to satisfy the wifoid - poor me- she doesn't see enough of me either, maybe there is a reason?) SO, I will at some point buy a nice monblock set for the Cors in my own little cave, but for now the HT is it...Gotta get the toys in fast in case I am more fertile than I hope...

ANy other suggestions? I know you guys have parasound, what do you think? Remember I want to mate this thing (for now) to the Sunfire 400~7, any advantages or disadvantages to this plan (other than aesthetics)? The 990 seems to be pretty stacked with reasonable features, I haven't checked out the McCormack (but will) and the McIntosh looks awesome, but I want to keep most of the money *IN* my retirement...What about ARCAM or Rotel, do they have anything worth a damn within my criteria that any one is familiar with? (Where is that lovely articulate blonde who owns RF-7's and all Rotel equipment, don't remember the name, but can see the face! Chime in here, please!) Are there any Internet based companies offering cool new products for cheap (ala Outlaw?)I also have heard no one comment on the Sunfire TGIV, why? Surely some of you have this thing?

Come on, I feel like I am pulling hair here...

Thanks again, those who replied.

BB

[Kriton]

Frzninvt,

Of the two that you tried, which is more expensive, how was the HT performance comparatively? Channel sep, things like that? Did they require special amps, or work with anything? Speakers you were using them with (same as your profile or different)?

What was the prob with the B&K, I assume you are talking the REF Preamp, right?

How much did the NAD cost, did you get it big box, can they be had on the internet?

What is the current big processor, Cirrus or Motor, or what? And what the hell is the difference and why should I care? Is a processor a processor? Does processor speed matter?

Should I be looking at a receiver as a pre (which is what I am using now, a yammie), do they have better HT processing in general because that is what they are specifically made for? This Yamaha will do everything but dance a jig, but I want simple and *separate* (channels of discrete HT sound, that is)...

Am I just way off base? Why do I feel like I am using an inordinate amount of question marks? I need a beer (period), and some good 'ol PWK Corn lovin (platonic gentlemen purely platonic)...

BB

[jheis]

BB

I've got a B&K Ref 50 pre/pro that I picked up just before they came out with the Series II. It was discounted to ~$1,600 b/c of the pending arrival of the new model, of course, as I understand it mine can be upgraded to the new spec's - for a price - and being without it for a period of time.

I'm very happy with it, but have seen lots of comments/complaints about the rather loud (solenoid?) "click" when changing sources. Doesn't bother me.

I'm using it with four separate B&K two channel amps. It gives you the choice of using either balanced or unbalanced in/outputs. One of the things I was not expecting, but really like (2 channel purists avert your eyes) is the Ref 50 gives me 7 channel stereo!

Haven't bothered to spend the time to try to figure out how to program the rather complicated remote, but it's supposed to do everything but dance.

The only thing I can compare it to is a Denon AVR-1804 that I had briefly. The Denon was an absolute POS - sounded awfull, couldn't pull in an FM station to save it's life, and so on....

James

[Frzninvt]

You need to take a deep breath before you give yourself a heart attack!

The B&K Ref 50 sounded fabulous, looked great, lots of flexibility, upgradeability, etc. The surround steering was excellent! I liked everything about it except for the damn clicking relays, tedious menus, it was tricky to set up. The B&K Ref 50 retailed at $3K and I got it for $1500 through an authorized dealer in my area, B&K was offering a special at the time. I tried it for 10 days and instead of returning it I just sold it on AudioGon.

I then went searching again and came across the NAD T163 it retails around $2K and I got it from the same dealer for $1300, it has all the formats including DPLIIx, special 2-channel listening modes, switching to two channel is a snap, you can toggle the modes right on the remote.

I liked the NAD because it had two dedicated subwoofer outputs since I have two subs, it was software upgradable as well. NAD puts more effort into performance instead of fancy gimmickry that you will never use. You can rename the source displays with the NAD as well which is a nice feature.

Performance is top notch, equal or better than the Ref 50.

B&K has refined the Ref 50 even further though and the S2 model is supposed to be better than its predecessor.

I was running the same speaker array with both, I am actually running 8 channels (8 X 100W) and two subwoofers, I have really sensitive speakers and the NAD is quiet regardless of the source being played.

Before the Ref 50 and NAD I used a Denon AVR-4800 and AVR-3300 as preamps, the dedicated Pre/Pro's were easily superior in performance and surround steering capability.

My current setup quite honestly puts most theaters to shame, the realism is right off the scale.

[j-malotky]

Don't forget to look at Lexicon. They are IMHO the absolute best surround sound processor. The MC-4 has a nice pricepoint.

JM

[GeorgeV]

A while back, I was in the same situation as you are in now. I wanted a HT pre-amp that delivered audiophile 2-channel sound quality. I listened to the B&K ref 50, EAD TheaterMaster 8800, Anthem AVM 30 & D1, NAD 163, Adcom GTP 880 and the Bryston SP1.7. The only 2 pre-amps that were clearly better in 2 channel were the Bryston and the EAD. Since the Bryston sound just as good as the EAD, I purchased the Bryston and saved a few thousand dollars. If you really want the best 2-channel sound from a HT pre-amp, give the Bryston SP1.7 a try. You will not be disappointed.