Deang Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 The QSC 1202 and 1602 are run of the mill Class AB amps using bipolar transistors -- but have digitally switched power supplies. Go to the QSC site and read the White Papers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 ---------------- On 7/13/2005 9:59:39 PM DeanG wrote: The QSC 1202 and 1602 are run of the mill Class AB amps using bipolar transistors -- but have digitally switched power supplies. Go to the QSC site and read the White Papers. ---------------- I thought that this was a digital amp. I saw that it said Class A/B, but I thought that maybe it was some marketing ploy like Class "T" or Class "D" The digital power supply must have a significant effect becase this thing is clean. When I have it on the first lights on the meter barely light up so I am not using much power and the sound is very clean. It seems much cleaner than my Denon receiver, but I wonder how much is attributable to the Peach Preamp? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 Pro and Consumer gear is also different in the marketing and distribution. Consumer equipment must always have the latest and greatest because that is how consumers buy. If Company A has 78 buttons and company B has 79, then the average consumer will buy the HT receiver from company B. That is why most of the consumer gear, be it from HK, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer,Sony etc. gets a new model every year. That is what competition does. I also suspect that the distribution chain for consumer gear is much more efficient (read: Cheaper) because you have huge volumes thru big box stores. Pro gear I am sure is less than 10% of that market. I am curious about the Carver amp that is $1000 more in consumer version. Something odd here. Perhaps markups vary alot by brand. Now, of course, I do not consider most on this forum average consumers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 Got to love a ProAudio Discussion in a 2 channel forum... ---------------- On 7/14/2005 7:27:32 AM efzauner wrote: Now, of course, I do not consider most on this forum average consumers! ---------------- Guess your right about that. The way I see it, equipement is equipement... and they should be judged by the performance and features regardless of their intended audience. Amplifiers are a just one of those products... and pro audio definitely seem to offer a lot more power per dollar. Unfortunately many of them also have cooling fans which may not be acceptable in a home environment and prices on fanless pro amps climb quickly. All things equal, it comes back to the age-old discussion on sound differences between non-clipping SS amps, and I'm not going there. Back to the original point of feeling the kick drum at some live venues. I think this is where a lot of SR systems have the upper hand by (normally) having more displacement available to reproduce the low frequencies and also having the better mix. Most Klipsch heritage roll off kinda early and many of the older recordings are similarly bass deficient. I have found that listening to a good recording on heritage system combined with a very capable subwoofer will give you a similar effect. Most live venues I have been to (esp the bigger ones) can't compete with a Heritage/Subwoofer combo. BTW, both my current subwoofer, and my soon-to-be-completed one are powered by pro amps (JBL/QSC 700W with fan-mod and a Behringer 2500W in a separate room). Rob PS: You can get very reasonably priced pro amplifiers by choosing a heavier units as premiums are charged for light-weight mobile designs. OTOH, some other pro equipment are actually more expensive than consumer units... like pro speakers with high quality components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 ---------------- On 7/12/2005 12:26:19 AM gibby214 wrote: I have been finding myself checking out all of the gear at live bands lately. Mostly small venue 300-1000 in the audience. Last show I went to , Felt like I was getting kicked in the chest with each hit of the kick drum. It was great and it didn't seem that loud. (like ears ringing all night). Do you guy's with Cornwalls etc. have this effect in your home when you rock out? Or is this only reached with BIG QSC, Crest or Crown AMP's and Big EV, or Peavey Speakers and passive subs? ---------------- Well that's about the size audience for which I've been mixing the last 13 years or so...I would say most of that chest crushing from the kick drum is in the 100-200Hz region with a sharp 1kHz attack riding with it and is due to the mic'ing techniques typically used for live sound. I would claim that small venues are the hardest place to mix because they are generally poor acoustical places where you also have to deal with stage noise being a part of the FOH...there have been times that I completely just remove all drum material below 60,80 or 100Hz (depends on the brand mixer I'm using at the time). The reason being that subharmonic material quickly muddies up the sound, raises the noise floor and can cause feedback issues. I know I'm making a lot of generalities here, but it sounds to me like you've got yourself a good soundguy who's dealing with the compromises very well. I would bet those kick drums are pushing 120dB in the audience (or 20dB louder than the average), which is extremely loud...just that it's so fast and clean that it doesn't sound that way. I mixed a few shows where there were inspectors to make sure the SPL levels were within standards and I was a good 10dB over the max but they never noticed because it was clean (or maybe they just didn't care). Anyways, all that to say I think your clean loud kick drum is probably just a very fast attack with very little deep low-end (thus sounding "clean"). Though a lot of power and big speakers are always a good thing, I don't think it can directly be attributed to the reason you were hearing what you heard...but it does take headroom to faithfully playback those fast transients and pro-amps give the most watt per buck. For the record, you would be hardpressed to find a pro-rig (especially in a smaller venue) that has appreciable output below 50 or 60Hz. A really good subwoofer rig will drop like a rock around 40-50Hz, but that's because those frequencies aren't vital to enjoying the sound. But what they sacrifice in low end they gain in output; the really nice rigs can generally put out over 130dB cleanly with only one or two thousand watts...so pro-rigs by nature have insane punch to them (and lots of headroom). You can always tell when someone is an inexperienced sound guy by how much he tries to boost the lows...even PWK claimed that music happens in the midrange and that's where the focus should be. Anyways, just about any home setup will be able to give you that chest thumping experience as long as you've got headroom with your amp. The nice thing about klipsch speakers is that they are very efficient and therefore require less power to reach the same levels, thus by nature giving you a lot more headroom. So if you generally are listening at 1 watt (which would be in the high 90's), then I would suggest having an amplifier capapble of a good 100 clean watts (clean implying 100 watts continuous with low THD if it's an SS amp)...so basically, always have 100x the watts available from the level you normally listen at and you'll never have to worry yourself with power compression (so if you have crappy inefficient speakers, then you might be listening at 10 watts continuous which would require an amp that can put out 1000watts....and a speaker that can handle the extra power too). So ya, I'm pretty much rambling now so I think I'll stop before I bore everyone to death (and then post lots more later) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 OK. I will stir the pot with a few observations. Many tongue in cheek, and some more substantial. I dont really have an axe to grind here, as I personally love a few of the pro series amps (none focused upon here, however!). But I also feel that I can fairly evaluate their appropriateness for a given job without regard for the label attached to the particular unit! And I believe that is the real issue that we should be focusing upon. With all due respect, anyone can make a 'pro' line product. And despite the plethora of models available, only a relatively few manufacturers and models are used on a large scale by the major SR companies - with the vast majority using the Crown Macro-tech/Itec and QSC PowerLight/2 series. The balance being populated primarily by Crest, and a few others including proprietary brands (i.e. Clair, Meyers integrated <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />MILO series, etc.) in the field. Some of the amps are fine and many more I would avoid like the plague. And having spent too many years dealing with them day in and day out, I would personally deal with only a select handful. After all, these do the job without fail. And a few truly are high performance in all respects. But these particular units do not fall into the price range of a casual user, nor would I advise the average guy look at them. Especially as several amps require a dedicated 20-amp circuit for the amp alone! ;-) I was curious regarding the Carver (having never used them in the real world) so I called a few friends at Clair Bros/Showco as Pro-Sound News showed them as being the only folks running a few Carvers, in addition to the other brands mentioned above, only to hear them express a bit of amazement at the listing. They had indeed tried a few of the older series Carver, but have since stripped all of the them out and will not be using the new series Carver gear. Thus, NONE of the top 10 tours in May were using Carvers, and those that had, have dumped them. So hows THAT for an endorsement! ;-) <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> So much for that avenue! I get the feeling that many of you are pushing this particular amp because of some perceived whiz bang improvement predicated upon the word digital being used, and perhaps you are wanting this amp to perform well. And feeling that since it has both the words pro and digital associated with it, that it must assume some mystical quality. ;-) I must admit to laughing aloud at a couple of the only reviews I could find on the units (holographic imaging! Yeah, right!!) Therefore, I am not sure where some of the ideas are coming from. Some seem to be wishful thinking. Others may be trying to rationalize buying one of the low end pro units. That is all well and good, as you are certainly entitled to do anything you like! But lets stand back and take a quick look at a few items that might cause someone to pause! Carver (no relation to Bob Carver! OK! Lets count that as a positive point! So, perhaps that means that the components will not be stripped of their value markings as some of the early magnetic field amps were!!! ;-) ZR Series (high end!) THD: <0.06% at -10dB referenced to rated power (4 ohm), 1kHz < 0.2% at 1/8 rated power (4 ohm), 20-20kHz, 20kHz BW < 0.5% at rated power (4 ohm), 20-20kHz, 20kHz BW < 0.15% at rated power (4 ohm), 1kHz S/N: 100dB CV Series S/N: 94 dB!! Power Bandwidth 40 -20KHz at 4-8 ohms! Xi Series <0.5% at rated power (8 ohm), 20-20kHz <0.5% at rated power (4 ohm), 20-20kHz 1% at rated power (2 ohm), 1kHz 1% at rated power (4 ohm), bridged 1% at rated power (8 ohm), bridged And if those specs dont give you pause, check this out!!! Duty cycle: Continuous operation at 1/3 rated power and only guaranteed stable at 1/3 rated power!? Houston, I think we have a (potential) problem! Dont you love it when equipment is rated and guaranteed stable at 1/3 rated power!! Moreover, the duty cycle assures that they can continue to function at 1/3 rated power! Whoopee! We are cooking with gas now! Thus the rated power assumes a meaning much like the old IHF instantaneous rating! You know, the ones rating a particular unit at 8.73 MegaWatts, but actually operating at 3 watts RMS! Sounds to me like these are over-rated by a few hundred %! Now that may or may not make a difference to your application, but since it is not specifically defined, there is no way to tell! High fidelity specs? Pray they run cool, as that may well be their only point to compete on! But the guys at ClairBros/Showco did say they were lighter! ;-) In many ways it would seem! ;-) But to each his own...I am just not sure what we are trying to accomplish here aside from championing various topologies and brands - I still really haven't seen an attempt to match a particular source and load characteristics that would make a pro amp an optimal choice - and SPL alone is not a sufficient criteria... Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 DraGon ... ya beat me to it .... Great spec's .... NOT ..! can't beat a Crest to death .. Peavey, not fancy, but tough QSC has come along ways since the late '70's but .. i run CROWN .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmiles Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 Oddly enough I got on a thread over on AVS about the same subject. My .02 (I'm braced for the flames) IMHO there is only one pro amp. CROWN. Crown makes the Lexicon amps (Bryston used to). It seems to me the sound they (pro amps) make in the live venue is the sound we are trying to recreate... so why not? I'm more of a home theater buff so I one day want to run 3 Crown K2's for mains or maybe 7 K1's in mono. My only concern for a high end 2 channel application would be noise floor and soundstage. On the upside 2 Crown K1's are about $2000 not mega bucks. The only knock on Crown for me is the published spec on thier new I-Tech series. How do you get that much output from a 120 or 240V circuit? It sounds odd to me. I hope that is not HK way of buggering the line... Regards, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 ---------------- On 7/12/2005 2:50:17 AM dragonfyr wrote: Personally I love the Crown gear and have several macro-tech amps, but do you need them to run your LaScalas or your smaller series non-heritage speakers!? Will you realize any appreciable benefit? Are the qualities that are used in pro gear beneficial to home applications? ---------------- I would say emphatically yes. These Crown, QSC, Bryston, and numerous other ultra-high-end professional amps are primarily used behind the console at studios, to monitor mixes through speakers much, much smaller than your LaScalas. They're built to provide maximum clarity throughout the wattage range, and typically can deliver far more class A output than 95% of the consumer-grade SS amplifiers built - giving you cleaner, more detailed sound even through most of your transient peaks... Now the original poster mentioned Peavey - for the record, they're not worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence as the companies I'm talking about. Peavey is low-grade junk, designed for budget band rigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 ---------------- And feeling that since it has both the words pro and digital associated with it, that it must assume some mystical quality. ;-) <?xml:namespace prefix = o /> ---------------- For the record, I didn't buy my QSC because it was a "pro" amp. I actualy thought that it would be a detriment because I, wrongly, associated "pro" with "nigthclub" and figured that "pro" equipment sounded bad when delivering just a few watts. I bought the QSC because Dean reccomended it and it was relatively cheap. I will admit that I did think that it was a digital amp like my Teac, but I am still happy with it even though it is a "lowly class a/b" Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Trey Cannon Posted July 14, 2005 Klipsch Employees Share Posted July 14, 2005 Most all the movie houses that use Klipsch cinema uses QSC for power. We use QSC and Crest amps in the lab. There is a bit of fan noise, but amps should be used not seen and only heard in the speakers. Put them in the rack and close the door. I will have CINEMA rated amps when I can. I use pro speakers in my HT as well...La Scalas and KSM2s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 ---------------- On 7/14/2005 10:44:28 PM Trey Cannon wrote: Most all the movie houses that use Klipsch cinema use QSC for power. We use QSC and Crest amps in the lab. ---------------- Is there any particular reason for going with QSC and Crest? I'm personally a Crown guy myself, but I know they're part of the whole HK thing, which JBL is also a part of...Is it more of a don't help the competition thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Trey Cannon Posted July 15, 2005 Klipsch Employees Share Posted July 15, 2005 Crown makes good products. I have used them many times in live gigs. For me, Yes, it is about who owns them....and I can get a better deal from Crest and QSC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6foot8 Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 ---------------- On 7/15/2005 6:25:59 AM Trey Cannon wrote: Crown makes good products. I have used them many times in live gigs. For me, Yes, it is about who owns them....and I can get a better deal from Crest and QSC. ---------------- I use vintage BGW in my home setup. I had BGW (now Amplifier Technologies) restore my amps to factory specs. I am using a 750B for the woofer horns and the 250E for the mid\high horns (KPT-Jubilee\535). Anyone heard this combo before anywhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivendell61 Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 6foot8, Paul Klipsch ran a BGW (Model 100) in his home HiFi. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6foot8 Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 ---------------- On 7/15/2005 9:09:56 AM Rivendell61 wrote: 6foot8, Paul Klipsch ran a BGW (Model 100) in his home HiFi. Mark ---------------- Hey that's way cool...thanks for the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 ---------------- On 7/15/2005 6:25:59 AM Trey Cannon wrote: Crown makes good products. I have used them many times in live gigs. For me, Yes, it is about who owns them....and I can get a better deal from Crest and QSC. ---------------- Woh cool, I didn't know you did live sound too...btw, what exactly do you do at klipsch anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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