Power Conditioner hell!

[toddvj]

I skipped through a lot of this thread. I just have to ask...Obsess much? How do you decide what to wear in the morning? You're talking about a $60 power strip for crying out loud.

[picky]

Here is Tripp Lite's Rackmount Line Conditioner, the Model LCR2400: Handles 2400 watts (20 Amps*).

http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=2832

Unlike the one mentioned in your initial post, THIS is a Line Conditioner that handles brownouts and surges. The one you mention is just a surge protector, as others have pointed out.

I have been using the above device now for nearly 3 years and it has been flawless. We're recently been having a lot of power line sags (below-normal voltage conditions) in our neighborhood in the evenings from about 6 to 10 PM because everyone is running their air conditioning. The power being fed to our theater equipment from this device had been a rock-steady 120 volts. It ain't pretty but it's affordable ($250), reliable and it works.

* Must be plugged into a 20 Amp Home run circuit.

[picky]

Ironically, Detroit Edison was out to our neighborhood last night. They informed my next door neighbor that the reason we have been experiencing so much voltage fluctuation lately is because a large fuse on a pole a few houses down on the cross street needed replacing. It's continuity had become compromised due to corrosion. The minute they changed that fuse, our voltage came right back where it belongs. That said, Thanks to our Tripp Lite Line Conditioner, our theater never saw anything but 120 volts. It's good to know our equipment is so well protected and without going broke.

[PrestonTom]

I will have to confess my ignorance and perhaps DRAGONFYR or whoever can help me out.

First question: if the supplied voltage goes low then wouldn't you have to use something like a baterry or a very large capacitor to effectively buffer against these dips in voltage?

Second question: when the voltage goes low, doesn't the transformer and the large capacitor in the power supply portion of the amplifier provide buffering for transient decreases in the supplied voltage?

I always get worried when manufacturers make money from audiophiles who may be ignorant of the specifics.

This is my paranoia, but I am also curious,

-Tom

[tripod]

Read back over the thread, and follow some of the links, and you'll see that these guys are spending a lot more than $60 and buying a lot more than a power strip.

I'm not sure that I agree with the need for power conditioning in the first place (in most typical applications). But if someone's going to drop $300+ on a component, I don't blame them for obsessing a bit about it.

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On 7/19/2005 11:27:59 PM toddvj wrote:

I skipped through a lot of this thread. I just have to ask...Obsess much? How do you decide what to wear in the morning? You're talking about a $60 power strip for crying out loud.

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[dragonfyr]

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On 7/21/2005 9:41:44 PM PrestonTom wrote:

First question: if the supplied voltage goes low then wouldn't you have to use something like a battery or a very large capacitor to effectively buffer against these dips in voltage?

Second question: when the voltage goes low, doesn't the transformer and the large capacitor in the power supply portion of the amplifier provide buffering for transient decreases in the supplied voltage?

I always get worried when manufacturers make money from audiophiles who may be ignorant of the specifics.

-Tom

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Good questions!

Yes, traditionally, deep cycle batteries are used to provide additional current in the event of extended low voltage 'brown out' conditions, as the normal capacitance (even 'beefed up' capacitance) is only designed to supply short term transient shortages.

Capacitor banks which 'enjoy' being under power continuously as opposed to batteries which do not like continuous charging, are indeed a possibility (and for example, these are precisely what are used on supercomputers such as the IBM RS6000 series to maintain RAM during the potential 'power off' situation). The problem is that supplying sufficient capacitive storage to sustain extended low voltage situtations is extremely expensive! And LARGE!!!!

Batteries provide the most reasonable cost/benefit return.

I too share the concern over whiz bang marketing which draws on 'sound' (hey, a pun!) technology and sells solutions that are superfluous to the REAL world needs of anyone, and the audio/video market seems to be especially susceptible! And they employ just enough technical phrases and references to make the average person see a connection, whether it is valid or not.

(And historically I must give credit to Audio Advisor! How many of you remember their introduction of "light insulated" cables and "water insulated" cables in the mid '80's! What a hoot!)

And it surprises me even more to watch those who have discovered this phenomenon regarding a particular product or company jump up and down in amazement and indignation and then promptly run out and embrace another product(s) and defend them as vigorously as they denigrate the former!

There is alot of wonderful technology, and with all due respect, little is really new. Better materials and manufacturing may afford better components, but the underlying physics (aren't there rules prohibiting the use of this word!?!?! Oh well... that is what the moderators are for! ) are and have been well known for a long time. But it's rather amazing to watch the newfound exhuberance of so many as they seemingly discover so many new breakthroughs while in so many cases also rejecting new real advances in the physics of acoustics. Oh well.

[STL]

On 7/19/2005 7:03:09 PM 3dzapper wrote:

For $213 at CompUSA, this unit by Tripp Lite will do the trick for most.

http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=2833

I have an older version of this model that I picked up for less than $50 on eBay. It is suppose to protect in both low and over voltage situations, and it seems to work well. I was having some power problems one night, and I was impressed that it successfully kept my HD TiVo running (so I didn't have to wait thru a reboot) through several brown-outs.

I also bought a Tripp-Lite Isolation Transformer on eBay for only $11. It's mounting flange had some damage it likely got during shipment but was otherwise new; I think think I got it so cheap because no one knew what it was and because shipping was going to be pricey (but I picked it up locally). Here's a link to the model I got:

http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=226

I'm currently not using it. Is anyone tried such a device? Any comments about it would be appreciated.

Lastly, since I have an open basement and a spare 20A breaker I am thinking of running a dedicated power line for my HT. Anyone have any comments about the benefits (or lack of) in doing that?

[mmiles]

Dragon brings to the table a wealth of knowledge it appears.

Being in the computer business my self I see the "protection" issues in this order:

1. Line conditioning. Eliminating or at least reducing common mode noise or neutral to ground voltage. All our sophisticated gear works off a low voltage DC and ground reference. It is critical to keep that "clean".

2. Ground Loops. Common point or mechanical reference to ground. This is best done by an isolated ground dedicated electrical service. However, there are devices that address this as well.

3. Voltage stability. This provides constant 60 cycle 120 volts without fluctuation. By having stable power the power supplies in our gear can work more efficiently and produce less noise.

4. UPS. When the power flickers or is out it is great to have something to keep the power source up. Like Dragon stated the battery-based units are the least expensive and attainable to the average consumer. I think it is a great idea to have a small UPS on a DLP RPTV or PJ so not to "pop" bulbs during an unexpected outage.

It is important to note that 1 - 3 is 90-95% of the problems that exist in the field. #4 is usually an act of Mother Nature (thunderstorm), extreme demand on the utility company (its been 95+ here for almost 2 weeks), accident (car crash takes out a transformer) or utility company failure (rare except in Calif.).

Personally I prefer transformer-based products like OneAC and PowerVar but they are expensive and large (sized to the application). We sell them in our office (shameless plug) or visit eBay. I suggest you folks look at my post regarding PS AUDIO deals (another shameless plug).

Just my .02

Regards,

Mike

[dragonfyr]

An isolation transformer with sufficient current capacity is great for voltage regulation.

In addition, a dedicated service for the HT will definitely offer advantages and help isolate the system from many of the various noises sources present in the home environment. Both are relatively inexpensive and well worthwhile!

The UPS, provided it is rated sufficiently for current load, will provide surge, noise and low voltage correction, and is an excellent choice as well. There are many fine manufacturers of UPSes, although my personal favorite tends towards APC (as I have had the most experience with them for various small to very large installations over the past 15 years and they have always been great to work with. Most of my other large-scale experience would probably not be of interest unless you desire to install a megawatt diesel Sola!). But Tripplite and many others make some great products too (so do not take my experience as an end all solution!) that are aimed at the more 'functional' aspects of the market and not at the trendy audio/HT accessory market. My gut feeling is that by sticking to the companies oriented more toward supplying the industrial market and avoiding the trendy special purpose accessory market, you will locate products more oriented toward real solid performance. But I would still aim at the manufacturers who have been around for a while and have a proven track record of providing robust utilitarian products rather then the fancy 'audio' or 'HT' products. This market has existed for some time with many systems requiring demands that are more stringent then those offered by audio. Therefore, there is no need for fancy and absurdly priced 'special' solutions.

And I guess this will prompt the 74 posts championing every variant of special purpose line device from magic current source cables to those catering to the fancy moded front panels. And I just hope you folks enjoy them <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I am curious as to how many of the proponents of the fancy exotic models have seen the results of a line monitor and have had reason to deal with the realities the issue focuses upon? Now I dont expect everyone to have this experience, and I certainly dont believe it a prerequisite, but I mention this simply because it seems that so many opinions seem driven by the various marketing claims of the products rather then by experience. And basic common bonding and other fundamental safeguards (including the proper observance of ground paths and polarity through out the product chain hint all the floated grounds used instead of the proper isolation techniques to alleviate ground loops!) will make a larger contribution then a single fancy expensive magic box solution.

[mmiles]

Agree with Dragon for the most part...

I have not seen any APCC UPS give the amount of line conditioning that is acceptable in our critical applications. Often we put the line conditioner in front of the UPS and yes we use OneAc for LC and APCC for the UPS.

Even though expensive the PSA PowerPlant does some really cool stuff for AC treatment. It does it all IMHO except a UPS. But again it is expensive but it works...

If you are looking for low cost again I suggest folks go over to eBay and look for some OneAC and PowerVar auctions. Again IMHO line conditioning is the #1 issue of problems.

Dragon thanks for all the input. Your experience in this field is a great resource to have around!

Regards,

Mike

[dragonfyr]

The APC installations to which I referred are at the (Accelerated Strategic Computing Initiative) ASCI Blue (at Lawrence Livermore) and ASCI White installations (also Lawrence Livermore but extending to Sandia & LosAlamos). Not your average HT installation!

Let's just say it's a tad 'inconvenient' for these systems to encounter a power based problem!

[michael hurd]

The Tripplite unit that picky mentioned automatically selects different taps on an internal transformer. It will correct for voltage as low as 87 volts and as high as 140 volts. When I get some more debts paid off, this is the unit that I am considering.

I would also like to purchase a series-mode surge protector, like a Surge-X unit.

[STL]

On 7/22/2005 11:23:55 AM michael hurd wrote:

The Tripplite unit that picky mentioned automatically selects different taps on an internal transformer. It will correct for voltage as low as 87 volts and as high as 140 volts. When I get some more debts paid off, this is the unit that I am considering.

So does the one I have (that 3dzapper mentioned even before picky). And if an 1800W unit will work for you, it costs about HALF as much as the one picky mentioned! Also, you might want to watch eBay since you can get used ones even cheaper there.

[Arman]

Thanks for all the help so far, guys!

STL - what model do you have? That Tripp-lite looks like it might be the one...

[STL]

Tripp-Lite LC-1800

[bvbull200]

Call it overkill, laugh if you want, but I get a pretty decent discount on it, still invested over a grand, but I run the Monster AVS 2000, HT UPS 500, and the HTS 5100. Pretty much covers everything, the AVS is a voltage regulator ensuring a constant 120V (usually withing .5V), the UPS provides a constant power-supply, and the HTS helps with EMI/RFI. The AVS 2000 alone retails for $1,500 so unless you can find a deal, the set-up costs a pretty penny, but with the investment that some of you folks on this board have made for your home theater, its not too bad. I'm not incredibly technically savy with how it all works, I just know the concepts of everything and I'm pretty sure I'm well covered on all fronts.