Opinions on SVS subs

[TheEAR]

I dont look forward to any TN reviews,I test the subs myself(in my room,placed to suit my BASS taste)and its fun to test them anyway.

In fact the TN review(test)list TV gave does not even have the Sunfire Mark II,Signature,Revel B15 and Aerial Acoustics SW12.Those subs would rank way on top(or damn close the top).The list contains a good amount of sub par garbage subs and means nothing to me.

Very incomplete list to say the least.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[aab3rd]

EAR(s)

What I mean by "tight" is that the sub feels like it is making more room shaking bass than good tight sound.

This might be due to the fact that my house was built in 1829.LOL

Also the sound comming out is more like BLA.BLa.Bla.bla

instead of BOOMMMMmmm. (excues my ineptness at discription)

Placement is probally the issue but I am concerned about the wattage of the sub at 200 watts for this room which is 400 sqft or 3600 cubic feet.

I am wondering wether two subs placed correctly would have an exponential difference in the quality of the bass even if the other was a something like a KSW12 which can be had cheaper than an SVS.

This message has been edited by aab3rd on 10-03-2001 at 04:25 PM

[Manuel Delaflor]

theears you seem to know alot about subs, I own one KSW12 and Im happy with it, but it can sound boomy at times, I have to cut at 40Hz in order to get the deepest bass it can give.

If I really want I can buy a larger sub, but I have to think it a lot because the wife and everything (by the way, I bet you are single! ). Now, in your opinion, a new sub from Klipsch will still match well with my speakers (Heresy)? and another question, for music do you prefer the KSW12 or a cheap hand made sonosub?

Thanks!

[TVodhanel]

>>>In fact the TN review(test)list TV gave does not even have the Sunfire Mark II,Signature,Revel B15 and Aerial Acoustics SW12.Those subs would rank way on top(or damn close the top).<<<

How do you know these subs would rank near the top?...I guess they're all pretty expensive...so...

If a manufacturer wants to have their products performance documented and published...warts and all...they can contact TN(or soundvision,TSS,AC,ect)and try to arrange a review. If you don't see a subwoofer on this list....it sure isn't because of TOm Nousaine. I'd contact the individual manufacturers and ask them why there's no objective performance data available on the unit.

There's also a problem of lead time. We sent TN some of the first 20-39s to roll out of the SVS shop. By the time the review was published...nearly a year later...we had already made numerous upgrades to that model. But that's something all manufacturers have to deal with...so we're all on an even playing field more or less.

maybe a list simply showing retail pricing would be of more interest to some?

TV

[TheEAR]

Manuel you guessed right TheEAR(s) is single for now,no woman would live with a sound sicko who has almost 15 kilowatts of audio packed in a room! LOL

One day I will end this madness.Not yet.

I would go with a sonosub(SVS and HSU are great sonosubs,n'est ce pas TV... )driven by a good amp.

Now TV you missed the boat...again!

If you read what I posted,I said the list has teh Sunfire Junior around 100dB.The Junior is the Sunfire(9"cube)with the least output.The Mark II has over 6 dB more and the Signature even more.

Mr TV here is a link to a review of the Signature...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_3/sunfiresubwoofersignature.html

And here is the link to the Sunfire Mark II review...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4_4/sunfiresubmk2.html

And the RevelB15 review...

http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/revelb15sub/index.html

These subs beat the crap out of most "listed".The only able to compete are the top 5 or six listed.

And they dont cost a fortume.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[forresthump]

reading this B15 review again I ask where are the measured THD distortion levels? again, the big Velo blows away the B15 in low distortion. not only at the low levels the B15 can only dream of, but all the way up the ladder to infinity. the HGS is so much cleaner and with so much more extension.

you will hear for sure ears when you get your HGS. you may get a little more output from the B15, but all things considered the HGS is the superior sub to me.

[TVodhanel]

>>>Now TV you missed the boat...again!

If you read what I posted,I said the list has teh Sunfire Junior around 100dB.The Junior is the Sunfire(9"cube)with the least output.The Mark II has over 6 dB more and the Signature even more.<<<

And this is a straight 6dB of clean headroom across the full rated bandwidth of the units? That's interesting as it seems to contradict some of the common issues relating to the topic. Where are the measurements that show this across the board 6dB increase in clean headroom again?

>>>Mr TV here is a link to a review of the Signature...http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_3/sunfiresubwoofersignature.html<<<

Zero distortion data...

>>>And here is the link to the Sunfire Mark II review...http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4_4/sunfiresubmk2.html<<<

Zero distortion data...

>>>And the RevelB15 review...http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/revelb15sub/index.html<<<

Oh wonderful...his light fixtures *rattled*...? Zero distortion data.

>>>These subs beat the crap out of most "listed".The only able to compete are the top 5 or six listed.<<<

The *listed* subs must perform with a rather strict 10% thd limit during their max output testing...and the *listed* subs are measured in a 7500 cu-ft room....using a 2m mic distance.

Would you care to explain exactly how you're able to correlate a *rattling light fixture* to objective test data gether using repeatable methods,with a given mic distance in a different room...with a 10% thd limit in place?

TV

[TheEAR]

Who will hear 10,11 or even 15% THD below 60Hz? You can measure THD,all looks dandy on paper.

I dont

And remember round cylinders dont have to please all the audiophiles even if they may be close to ideal(sound and price wise).

My main gripe is the cylinder look with your subs.Nothing against the principle or performance.

You even use good(very good bass drivers)drivers.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[forresthump]

ears i think though you've heard the hgs-18 before, you haven't REALLY heard it. distortion makes a hell of a difference especially with music LISTENING. the Velo has a servo for this. the b15 does not. the B15 has more output & the HGS has better bass quality. the Velo could easily top the B15 in SPL if they took out the servo & loosened up the 18 in driver. but this is the reason it has better quality with not much less output (more down real low). it will be the cleanest bass you ever hear. you'll see.

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go forth & hump the world

[TheEAR]

I did hear the HGS18(in my HT room,yes siree) and it is a very impressive sub,it is very clean sounding.In no way this makes the Revel "dirty" sounding,boomy or slow.

Only when you push the Sunfires,Revels and Aerials to EXTREME ...only then you hear the HGS18 best them.Who would listen at this level? WHO... Mr TV...probably no!Not even the green dwarf!

Some here have a build idea that Velodyne or SVS are the last words in subs.While they are great they are not the last words in sub bass.And I dont claim my subs are.

SVS and HSU are superior values,and perform near the very top.Velodyne makes good subs the HGS 15 and 18 are great subs.Did I ever say they were not?

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[forresthump]

EARS you did say the B15 had better quality than the HGS. I just say the HGS has better quality. I never said anything bad about the B15. It is a great sub & it's great to have you hear as nobody I recall ever mentioned the Revel or Aerial. Adds to the discussion you must know because someone says they think a sub is better does not mean yours is bad.

we must just agree to disagree on your statement that the B15 is the best quality bass. But maybe you agree that HGS is best quality now. Even if the b15 is 2nd best, that's still pretty damn good quality bass.

we need the rsw to come out now so we have something different to talk about

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go forth & hump the world

[TheEAR]

The Revel B15 is "best" for HT,where BIG output and good quality cound the most.

For music I would not take either(Velo HGS18 or Revel B15),the Aerial Acoustics SW12 outperforms them both.

Outperforms here does not mean it goes LOUDER.It integrates better with my Dynaudio speakers,and with Klipsch speakers.

Its probably like a single SVS Ultra with much better finish,built in amp and crossover.You pay for the gorgeous finish and options BIG TIME,you also get first rate quality and bass quality.

I think you would(probably)agree on the fact a SVS Ultra sounds better on music then HGS18,B15 or any large cone sub.Well its fast,tight and tuneful.The Aerial is like this,its not a blast a tonn sub(can do this too).

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[boa12]

ears, maybe with those denon on music you're cutting the subs too high with that fixed 80hz thx standard.

but your klipsch and others are not thx speakers, iow not little, low bass quantity speakers.

if the hgs-18 or B15 were cut more around 40-50hz i think they'd blend just as well as any sub. these subs

that put out more down low get a bad rap i think because they're not cut/blended properly & all lower frequencies move slower & are hence more obvious.

iow when the big speakers & these powerful subs overlap & interfere w/ each other, it gives the illusion that the sub is too slow.

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Klipsch KLF 30 (front)

(2)KLF C7 (front center & rear center)

Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Acurus A200X5 power amp

Sony DVP-C650D 5-disk cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 digital cable box

Monster HTS2500 & HTS1000 powercenters

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3, RC-3

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge

Technics dual cassette deck

rock on!

[erdric]

TheEAR(s) Now...oh, whatever....

Could you please back up your arguments with some actual data? Yeah, yeah, you point to some reviews that others did but I seem to recall that you said that you demo'd lots of these subs in your own room. If this is the case then, please, provide us with some of the data that you compiled that backs your arguments. Please be sure to include the critical data that TV requested, I.E. distortion. In addition, please indicate size of room, source equipment, testing tracks used, and any other pertinent information so that we can study the empirical data.

Unless of course all of your commentary is based on what your ears are telling you. Then it's just your opinion.

>>If golf ball 'A' travels a recorded distance of 200 yds and golf ball 'B' travels a recorded distance of 50 yds then it's obvious that 'A' is a superior product. Oh, wait a minute, ball 'A' was hit on a clear windless day by Tiger and ball 'B' was hit in the middle of a driving wind and rain storm by me. Those are equal test conditions correct?<<

Unless I'm greatly mistaken what makes Nousaine's list so valuable is that all the subs are tested in the same 'testing laboratory' with the same conditions applied. Reviewer A and reviewer B can test the same sub and come up with vastly different results if they don't have the exact same conditions applied.

Yeah, it matters how it sounds but you can't make a rational, unbiased comparision of products if you don't have data to compare. "SOUNDS good to me" is opinion.

End Rant. I await your sarcasm.

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Primary System:

Main KG-4

Center KV-3

Rear RS-3

Yamaha HTR-5250

Sony DVP-S560D

Panasonic PV-9664

Sony DBS system

Studio:

Main KG-3

Sony STR-AV920

Pioneer PD-4351

[TheEAR]

I dont buy audio to to measures and make "top flavor me too lists".I buy audio to listen and enjoy the music and movies.So where is the sarcasm?

Who cares if sub A has lower THD at 20Hz belting out 120dB if sub B has the same THD at 20Hz...at "only" 110dB output.

Will you listen at 120dB...not often unless you have damaged hearing aids.

What sounds good to me I will buy,that is all.Of course some positive reviews help guiding me towards a product I may know less but that performs well.

And Boa when I listen to music I use my "music only" sound system.No bogus reciever in there.I hear all the reciever users"but recievers can sound good" sure they can but its a far cry from a great power amp matched with a superb tube preamp.

Krell FPB600

Audio Research LS25

Sony SCD-1

Dynaudio Contour 3.3's

Monster Sigma speaker wires,M1000 interconects

And for low bass Aerial Acoustics SW12

With this system I dont need to worry about data,the music is so real and involving.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[erdric]

Yeah, you should make your decisions based on what sounds good to you, I do as well.

But please don't state as FACT that subwoofer A beats subwoofer B unless you have some sort of evidence that it does. Your OPINION doesn't count as evidence to me, only you. That was the whole point of my post.

------------------

Primary System:

Main KG-4

Center KV-3

Rear RS-3

Yamaha HTR-5250

Sony DVP-S560D

Panasonic PV-9664

Sony DBS system

Studio:

Main KG-3

Sony STR-AV920

Pioneer PD-4351

[TVodhanel]

>>>Who cares if sub A has lower THD at 20Hz belting out 120dB if sub B has the same THD at 20Hz...at "only" 110dB output.<<<

The HGS18 would hit about 100dB/20hz using TN's testing methods. There's no subs being discussed that would approach 120,or 110dB/20hz.

>>Will you listen at 120dB...not often unless you have damaged hearing aids<<<

Reference levels(with all speakers set to small) demands 121dB of headroom from the woofage down to the 21-24hz range.

TV

[TheEAR]

From now on you will be knon as TVodquote.

Did I say a sub hits 120dB @ 20Hz? NO Read what I posted.Sub A and B are examples,not real subs. LOLThe

Mr TVodqote you posted...

"HGS18 would hit about 100dB/20hz using TN's testing methods. There's no subs being discussed that would approach 120,or 110dB/20hz."

I agree,who is TN? He is a very respected reviewer,yes TVodqote I do respect him.But I dont consider him a GOD.

And I hear you,you will call me sarcastic,go feel free to do so.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TVodhanel]

>>>From now on you will be knon as TVodquote.<<<

I've been called worse...

>>>Did I say a sub hits 120dB @ 20Hz? NO Read what I posted.Sub A and B are examples,not real subs. LOL<<<

Why respond with examples that are based in fantasy to a reality based discussion on the matter of bass then? If you have no retort other to introduce fantasy based concepts on the topic...why waste the bandwidth?

>>>I agree,who is TN? He is a very respected reviewer,yes TVodqote I do respect him.But I dont consider him a GOD. <<<

TN= Tom Nousaine.

He's responsible for the largest subwoofer performance database in the world today(when considering output,extension,response curves AND distortion measurements...).

I don't consider him a god either. But you responded to the *list* I posted with claims that several other subwoofers would undoubtedly rank at/near the top.

Here's your text,

"""In fact the TN review(test)list TV gave does not even have the Sunfire Mark II,Signature,Revel B15 and Aerial Acoustics SW12.Those subs would rank way on top(or damn close the top)."""

When asked your reasoning for this statement...you've traveled into a self-admitted fantasy based speculation realm now. I referenced his testing methods and the concept that no subwoofer being discussed could possible hit the numbers you posted(110-120dB/20hz)using these methods. And your response now is to claim I must view TN as a *diety* of some sort?

Although I's sure TN would be very amused by this(he and I have had some HEATED debates in the past )...this thread is rapidly turning into a marathon of redundant/silly/non informative replies by yourself. In a contest such as this...you win,

TV

[TheEAR]

Kleenex please

Anybody?

My prediction proved to be right!

"TN= Tom Nousaine"

Nooo its him! NOOOOO!

I read his tests with alot of interest,I like to get real data.As he is about THE ONLY reviewer who brings facts to the table,not just nice words and genaral fluffy descriptions.

TheEAR(s) Now theears