Why LPs suck

[Parrot]

"...the late Jack Pfeiffer, the Producer of many

of the original RCA

"Shaded Dogs", (stated) in his last interview (with Michael Fremer of

The Tracking Angle):

Fremer: "So the people that think the originals are the holy grail,

those are the magic, they're mistaken?"

Pfeiffer: "They are totally mistaken."

Pfeiffer: "They (the "original" RCA Shaded Dogs) had to be tailored to

the deficiencies of the cutting and the playback system of the day. We

used to listen to lacquers... on our own systems, you know, in the

office and also at home, and we'd make judgments about... whether the

compression was too great or whatever, because when the mix down was

made to make the production master, they tried to limit the bass, they

tried to limit the dynamics, and to some extent, they tried to limit

the high frequency content at the end because they knew that that was

going to be on the inside (center) of the record."

[dragonfyr]

Is that where the F-M response curves were so handy?[]

...he said, just looking for trouble![][]

And just think, with some luck, you can find some albums that were played on a Sears automatic changer with the nickel taped to the tone arm that looked like it belonged on a vacuum cleaner that now require a >$1500 turntable to 'appreciate'![][]

{Actually, records are fine! But I would reserve running out and buying anything more then a Music Hall MMF-5 for the Japanese, German Polydor, MFSL, D2D, or new 'high mass' recordings...}

I just get a kick out of the analog vs. digital format debate here![]

[aviserated]

For sale: NAD turntable with Arum Beta S cartridge

Just kidding. Old LP's are fun and some sound verygood.

[edwinr]

Interesting comments on the LP, Paul. It's amazing the sound quality was still there after all the squeezing and tweaking to get a reasonable signal on the vinyl. Maybe that's why we get such a shock when we hear recordings with full dynamic range and and extended frequency response.

If I take the opportunity for an anology, allow me to refer to recent comments about the alleged 'poor sound quality' of certain Klipsch horn loaded speakers. Maybe the adverse comments were a result of people hearing the full blooded dynamics of a Klipsch Heritage horn loaded loudspeaker system - they are still in shock and denial! []

[Daddy Dee]

Thank you Parrot.

There are so many folks on the forum with BB Xtreme + Cream... I've had some days in a cold sweat not having one... or a turntable.

Now I think I can live with my CD's one more day.

[D-MAN]

I've always wondered about this: in the "lead in" groove before or between songs, why can the song "coming up" be heard before it actually starts (at volume)?

Have you TT-afficianadoes experienced this? It seemed to be the pressing but I'm not sure.

DM

[Parrot]

You reminded me of another reason that LPs suck! The pre-echo you hear

at the start of an LP is actually present, mixed in with the signal

during the entire side, but it is usually masked by the far-louder

signal of the program.

[Audio Flynn]

Paul;

Uncentered center holes really torque me off as one huge limitation.

I can see his point.

Few older records have minimal limitations; I just enjoy the historical

value of the ones that sound poor but will never be on CD.

Jittery CDs make me more nuts than a bad LP.

I have played few LPs all summer; going to just go nuts playing LPs all winter. []

[D-MAN]

You reminded me of another reason that LPs suck! The pre-echo you hear at the start of an LP is actually present, mixed in with the signal during the entire side, but it is usually masked by the far-louder signal of the program.

Oh dear. Well, I guess I did.

I swore off vinyl years ago. Haven't even wanted one since!

DM

[intotubes]

Yeah, I get it quite often. Usually when listening at high volume. Most likely artifacts from the upcoming groove. Since the current groove the needle is in is smooth and "empty", the next groove probably has impressed some low level impression on it of the information pressed into it. Not a good explanation but I think you can see what I mean. Never bothered me much. Just part of the "magic" of vinyl. So cool, you can see the music on the record, not just a rainbow of color on a plastic disc.

Don't get me wrong. I love CD's. They're so clear. But I don't mind the crackle of old vinyl either. The music is still there. I have been enjoying my record collection all over since I got my monster Cornwalls.

-Mark

[DrWho]

But I don't mind the crackle of old vinyl either. The music is still there.

I think there is a generational influence at play here because I grew

up with the clear sound of digital....the pops and clicks on LPs really

drive me insane because I can't tune them out! I know there's always

exceptions to the rule, but it seems a common trend that the younger

you are, the more inclined you are to listen to CDs.

[colterphoto1]

I've always wondered about this: in the "lead in" groove before or between songs, why can the song "coming up" be heard before it actually starts (at volume)?

Have you TT-afficianadoes experienced this? It seemed to be the pressing but I'm not sure.

DM

In the case of Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love, there is a pre-echo, if you will, of Roberts' vocal track in the silence just before. 'woman, way down inside, yoooouuuu nnneeeeedd, . I've heard that it was print-through on the master tape, having one extremely loud passage adjacent to a silent spot on the next wind of tape, would kind of twist the magnetic particles around. So at least in this case, it was on the master tape.

This might be the cause of the pre-echo in the lead in grooves of the LP's you are speaking of.

Michael

[fini]

Is there a "post echo?"

[garymd]

Other than a couple songs while Willy was here the other day, I haven't turned on my CD player in about 3 months on my Khorn system.

My goodness! What was I thinking????[] I guess I'll give BMG a call in the morning!!!

[dragonfyr]

Michael...

But that pre-echo was on the original pressing too!!

I have always wondered about that. Print through normally occurs with long term storage - especially if the tapes were not stored 'tails out'.

It seems as that was present from inception that it may have indeed been an effect! But I have never heard nor read anything definitive about that! Now that you remind me, I will have to try to remember to ask 'Animal' (Bruce G.) - long time Showco/Led Zep tech about that! Thanks for mentioning it!

Oh, regarding a 'post-echo' - yes!! That is the purpose of the reversed 'tails out' storage. So that in the event of storage induced print through, the echo will be masked by the program material.

[dragonfyr]

Other than a couple songs while Willy was here the other day, I haven't turned on my CD player in about 3 months on my Khorn system.

My goodness! What was I thinking????[] I guess I'll give BMG a call in the morning!!!

Oh my! You are a masochist![]

BMG: buy one for $2.99!!!!! Shipping and handling $17.99![]

Other then their intro offer, I think you will find you can do better with www.DeepDiscountCD.com and the free Amazon preferred buyer's club with their free discount for the asking!

[Aggie Klipsch]

Lead in sound has been there for a lot of the mass pressings. On the other hand, jazz, classical, piano and certain prog there is little of the sound of the next song. Granted, as the vinyl wears you will get more of a pre-view of the next song. But that usually occurs after many playings of the source. And if you change your stylus to a smaller, but more hardy diamond or whatever you are using, then you should not hear a pre-view of the next song.

As someone that has been around vinyl for over 40 years, you take the good and the bad of vinyl. Some recordings sound fantastic while others are absolutely grainy and distorted. Sounds like some CD's I own. YES Big Generator is one that has a painfully grainy high end that just makes the back of my neck crawl. Peter Gabriel's So has such a lack of bass and warm midrange that it sounds flat. But listen to the vinyl versions and all of the above is neutral and natural sounding. Then again, Steely Dan's Aja on CD has a better presence than the vinyl, and it is an MFSL recording.

It's just apple's to oranges and I like em both. Cheers

[pauln]

Pauln's Tips on how to enjoy LPs:

1] Correct equipment corresponding to the appropriate technology of the period - Tubes and Horns

2] Noisless records - Listen to them and keep them clean (almost all of mine are these)

3] Records with a little noise - Pretend there is a fireplace gently burning between the speakers

4] Noisy records - Pick up a guitar, violin, clarinet, trumpet, or bagpipe chanter and play along

The following is a non-troll editorial

Why CDs suck:

I can't stand the CD sound: to me it sounds fake, lifeless, phoney, and artificial

Too strong high and low end - like a bad loudness control

Sax sounds like an accordian

Grouped horns sound edgy against each other instead of transparent

Bass way to loud to sound real

Cymbals sound wrinkly and grey (and too loud) instead of hard and silver

Electric guitar rarely resembles the correct tone

[sunburnwilly]

Other than a couple songs while Willy was here the other day, I haven't turned on my CD player in about 3 months on my Khorn system.

My goodness! What was I thinking????[] I guess I'll give BMG a call in the morning!!!

Gary , after seeing that MASSIVE VINYL collection of yours , I was suprised that you actualy let me play that Little Feat CD . [] I do appreciate it though , seeing how it was the first thing I played on my Belles . To me it was kinda important .

[Painful Reality]

I wish LPs would suck.

I really do...