colterphoto1 Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 if the dealer won't return your money, suggest you smash the offending vinyl into little scraps and sprinkle lightly over his car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2RockU Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Are there any specific Record Company LABELs that I should look for and trust taking a chance on ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Great story, Allan! I know exactly how you feel. You're probably reliving the moment of discovery in your dreams, and upon waking, rushing out to the Thorens to see if it was all real...Christmas came early! (BTW, I haven't had a moment to try the new headshell & spacer. This weekend, for sure. THX again, dude!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 18, 2005 Author Share Posted November 18, 2005 Allan, Who are some of the personnel on that LP? Klipsch out. This is the great original Sun Ra band in all it's glory: Sun Ra piano Art Hoyle trumpet Dave Young trumpet James Scales alto sax John Gilmore tenor sax Pat Patrick baritone sax Jim Herndon tympani & timbali Robert Barry drums Julian Priester trombone Richard Evans bass Wilburn Green Fender bass incidental sounds: Wood blocks by John Gilmore; Bells from India by Pat Patrick and Art Hoyle; Other various bells by Jim Herndon, Dave Young, RObert Barry; Catherdral Chimes by Julien Preister; Tambourine by Wilburn Green John Gilmore was one of the greatest soloists in the history of jazz and was a HUGE influence on John Coltrane. That he spent nearly all of his 40 year career with Sun Ra was both a blessing and a curse. With Ra he was free but toiled in relative obscurity. He did record one album for Blue Note as a co-leader with Clifford Jordan (BN 1549) and was with Art Blakey for about a year and a half in '65-'66 and appears on a couple of Blakeys more obscure LPs for Limelight Records. Gilmore is also featured on a GREAT Andrew Hill Blue Note (BN 4203) and The McCoy Tyner LP on Impulse "Today and Tomorrow" and Freddie Hubbard's Impulse LP "The Artistry of Freddie Hubbard." Gilmore had TOTAL command of the tenor sax and was at home in both straight ahead hard-bop and TOTALLY "out" settings, so the Sun Ra band was the perfect (if obscure) place for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 18, 2005 Author Share Posted November 18, 2005 Are there any specific Record Company LABELs that I should look for and trust taking a chance on ? Without getting into the real minutia of jazz record values, here are some general rules of thumb: Anything "big band" from famous leaders is generally worthless. Records from big-time labels like Columbia tend to be of little value with the exception of a few titles, such as original mono 6-eye pressings of "Kind of Blue" or "Miles Ahead" from Miles Davis. Small, independent labels tended to sign the more daring and therefore more INTERESTING and SIGNIFICANT atrists. The most famous of these tiny labels was Blue Note, but others include Prestige, Riverside, Contemporary, Pacific Jazz, Emarcy and many others. Then there were the REALLY tiny labels like Transition, Jazz West, Progressive, Signal and Intro--companies that released only a small handful of records pressed in REALLY small numbers--the odds of finding one of these is very, VERY small--but it CAN happen! Look for ORIGINAL pressings--if you find a "deep groove" you've got an old record--when it comes to Blue Note and Prestige, look for "New York" or a New York address on the label and you've found a record of value. Condition is EVERYTHING. A really rare Blue Note worth $2000 in NM condition is worth only $200 in G condition!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born2RockU Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Thanx Allan. I hope ya don't mind me asking questions in the future, ....if I buy something ; ...to find out your valued point-of-view ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Congatulations Allan! Knowledge is a powerful tool indeed. I can only imagine how many folks flipped right by that record without as much as a whiff of an idea of what they were passing up. And don't you just love that giddy sensation when you hit that BIG find? Like a kid on Christmas Day - only better. You come across it in passing (these are just a few dollars after all)...then a sudden jolt of what you're looking at... then the heart-racing anxiety as you ramp up the expectations and begin coming to terms with what you have. A quick look around to make sure you haven't shown your hand - and a drop of perspiration on the forehead appears along with "clamy" hands. At this point you become oblivious to everything except your immediate surroundings and your focus is razor-sharp on the object in your hands. You calm down a bit - just enough to snap into examination-mode and you turn your find in your hands to determine the condition (as well as to assure yourself that this is the REAL deal). Once assured that its bona-fide, its time to see just how fortunate you are - in the case of a LP, its time to look at the record. Another wave of anxious sweat as you ever so carefully pull the record from its jacket and... with that first peak at the surface you begin hearing that distant voice..."clean (thank Goodness),Pull it out a bit further... "not a scratch, Was this even played?... look at that iridescence. Flip it over... "Holy S@#t!... this is mint...MINT! Just as the extent of your blessed fortune settles in and that warm feeling of self-congratulation starts to build, you realize your last hurdle... "This record belongs to someone else". The trick now is to try to calm yourself just enough to face the seller and finalize the deal without letting on what he's about to lose. Difficult, but not impossible - just a touch of that clamy sweat now. Then.. WHEW! He takes the money, gives you change and a receipt and - "IT'S MINE!" The flood of relief as you exhale for what seems like the first time in a long while...Now the gig is up and if the seller bothered to look into your eyes, he would certainly realize his folly. But that doesn't happen of course since he couldn't possibly know what has just transpired - its all from your perspective and you walk away from the store flushed with the joyous rapture of your accomplishment and good fortune. Now its just a matter of how fast you can get home and really absorb your prize as your own. Once the satisfaction settles in a bit more, you become suddenly quite desperate to find someone...anyone! to share this fantastic adventure with. Its like magic but its a good thing this doesn't happen too often as, like an opiate, it would certainly lose that euphoria. Its better than sex! (eventually) Well, at least that's how I react in these situations. Sorry for the run-on and I hope everybody gets to experience what Allan has... soon. Have fun, Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 >Small, independent labels tended to sign the more daring and therefore more INTERESTING and SIGNIFICANT atrists. I would agree with all that Alan said if the word Significant were replaced with another description. There are plenty of artists who because of their popularity sold many records. Those records are not collectible because of the sheer numbers that were sold. I would venture to say that many of those artists are extremely significant. This is not to say that popularity is a measure of significance (but it certainly can be), only that there are far more significant artists who were popular than those who toiled in obscurity. This is also not meant to say that none of the artists who sold few records were significant. But I would certainly venture to say that if they were significant, more people would have wanted to listen to their recordings. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 18, 2005 Author Share Posted November 18, 2005 I disagree. I would say that more than 90% of the "significant" jazz recordings of the past 60 years were made for small, independent labels. Nearly the ENTIRE recorded output of artists such as Parker, Gillespie, Silver, Blakey and many MANY OTHERS were made for independent labels. Sure there are some exceptions--Miles Davis and Brubeck to name two, but most of the really innovative and important work (in my estimation) did not sell in big numbers and was not embraced by the record buying public. Some great artists would get major deals for a short time (Blakey, Mingus, Monk to name three) but soon were back with indy labels after a handful of releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Cannot argue with your opinion that 9o% of the significant jazz recordings were for small labels. I will however continue to take exception to the statement that the more significant artists tended to be signed by small independent labels. I happen to think that artists such as Duke Ellington, Stan Kenton, Earl Hines, Errol Garner, and Jack Teagarden (all band Leaders BTW) are extremely significant jazz artists (way more BTW than Brubeck but thats just my opinion). Not to mention performers like Ella, Getz, Peterson, Evans, and Armstrong among many more who happened to sell a fair amount of records to an unsuspecting public! Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 I disagree. I would say that more than 90% of the "significant" jazz recordings of the past 60 years were made for small, independent labels. Nearly the ENTIRE recorded output of artists such as Parker, Gillespie, Silver, Blakey and many MANY OTHERS were made for independent labels. Sure there are some exceptions--Miles Davis and Brubeck to name two, but most of the really innovative and important work (in my estimation) did not sell in big numbers and was not embraced by the record buying public. Some great artists would get major deals for a short time (Blakey, Mingus, Monk to name three) but soon were back with indy labels after a handful of releases. How do you spell E-L-I-T-E. Anything that the poor, dumb masses like is not good jazz. Good jazz has to be something that only a discerning few rich, white, liberals can appreciate. Poor guys like Ra didn't even make $800 on an LP title, but now some poor sucker will lay out that kind of money just for the chance to pose as a hepcat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaaaz Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 that about sums it up parrot! Allan is the final word you know,just ask him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 20, 2005 Author Share Posted November 20, 2005 98% of Sun Ra's recordings were released on the El Satrun or Saturn labels-- owned by Sun Ra and sold for the most part at his shows. His fans were of every race and of all ages, but yes I would venture to guess they were nearly all "liberal," open minded and willing to listen to vibrant, complex and experimental music (and watch a hell of a floor show thrown in for good measure). Sun Ra didn't sell as many records or make as much money as a crap rock band like Dire Straits because his music wasn't BS aural candy that you could bop your head to on the car radio --full of tired riffs and sappy senitmental lyrics. Listen to whatever you like and enjoy it. Some folks enjoy Diet Coke and Big Macs and others Corton-Charlemagne and Bouillabaisse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago_Pete Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Congrats on the great find. Hard to believe what some of these LP's are worth. Seen a David Bowie LP sell on eBay for over $3200 the other day! Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 I hope I am not reading this correctly but in reading this, one could think that you are suggesting that some or all of the musicians that I listed as significant are the equivalent of Diet Coke or a Big Mac. I actually think that most of them were well received in France. BTW Bouillabaisse is pretty popular middle/lower class fare! Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 I also hope that I have not been sucked into a Parrot/Allan back and forth! I think those are more fun from the sidelines! Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 How do you spell E-L-I-T-E. Anything that the poor, dumb masses like is not good jazz. Good jazz has to be something that only a discerning few rich, white, liberals can appreciate. The Parrot drivels again! Considering how little you know about Jazz, you should not comment, period. Allan's statement is correct. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmikid Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Now I'm hungry! Believe it or not, I'll go for a whopper! Anyway, as you're talking jazz... I am watching a great doc about the birth of bebop with fantastic footage of Parker, Gillespie, and so many others. So any advice on which cd releases are the best of these two? BTW. Is there a good box set? Thank you! Down to Burger King I go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 . Listen to whatever you like and enjoy it. Some folks enjoy Diet Coke and Big Macs and others Corton-Charlemagne and Bouillabaisse. YOW ...!! that is the polite-est insult I have ever heard ......... thank god I don't like diet coke .....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted November 20, 2005 Author Share Posted November 20, 2005 I hope I am not reading this correctly but in reading this, one could think that you are suggesting that some or all of the musicians that I listed as significant are the equivalent of Diet Coke or a Big Mac. I actually think that most of them were well received in France. BTW Bouillabaisse is pretty popular middle/lower class fare! Josh Rest assured you are NOT reading it correctly! Duke Ellington is Kobe Beef and 30 year old single malt Scotch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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