I Bought Klipschorns :)

[Jeff Matthews]

Just saw your most recent post come in.

You are not hearing it as clearly and chest-pounding as it can be. You hear what you say is "great" because you don't know the difference. That's all there is to it.

Do you think they make all these higher powered amps for nothing? Again, my old and long-gone Marantz 1180DC would have knocked the socks off your HK. My Crown knocks the socks and toenails off my old and long-gone Marantz. Ergo: that's why it's long-gone.

Your HK is decent, so don't be disappointed in it when you hear what you're missing. Just be glad you finally found out what the difference is.

[Jeff Matthews]

But see, when I'm going 80mph in this Toyota (cranking WAY up to ear damage levels), I'm not hearing any distortion, noise, laboring/clipping. It's just not there. I can't turn it up higher unless I want things in the house falling off shelves, etc - or trashing my ears. I could if I wanted to. I have only 10 more points on the volume to try if I wanted to, but I did my max. Hubby won't go to my max. So I'm hard-pressed to see why I need more WPC. It just sounds clear & distortion free to our ears at our max tolerable volume. Which is really high. The dynamics are there and I hear zero hiss, etc. Bass is amazing & tight. Maybe if the room was bigger or we were father away from the speakers.

I also re-read TomPreston's, CalBlacksmith's, and Colin's posts here around page 2-3 or so and this makes sense to me? I just don't see needing 300 or so watts if I'm not hearing distortion or anything other than a louder version.

But I can't see going lower in wattage as I see this as downgrading? And I wouldn't get the volume I have now. Yes?

Here's something more about your quote above. The distortion, noise, laboring IS THERE and you do hear it. You just think it sounds great because you have not heard great. If you turn your HK up higher, things in the house will fall off shelves and your ears will get trashed. That's YOUR description. Now, imagine at the same loudness, it sounds soooooo... effortless - like you have plenty more room to go. No stuff falling off shelves. No ear-trashing. Yet, it's just as loud.

You CAN go louder without the perception of stuff falling off shelves and trashing your ears. When you do with a good amp, you'll go louder and you won't hear it as "so loud," you'll hear it as "so clean, smooth and powerful."

[Jeff Matthews]

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/648947/ShowPost.aspx

Here's the effect of what I am trying to explain to you. This was me inquiring why when I went from Corns to KHorns, I could push more volume and it sounded so effortless. This was me long before we got into the debates on amps in your threads, so you can discount any agenda here - becase it was ME asking the questions and doing the perceiving.

This is the kind of question you would have asked once you switch amps, except we told you before you made the switch.

[meagain]

Jeff - If the distortion is there & Hubby & I can't hear it, then it must also in the lower volume range cuz I only hear 'better' when I crank these. That's all I know. I hear nothing suffering when I crank it. I'm willing to concede I could have a better amp (tubes, crown, or otherwise), but I'm just saying when I crank it, neither of us hears any suffering of quality at mega high levels.

I beg to differ on the volume though. If your listening room is surrounded by glass shelving with little trinkets sitting on them, I don't care if you have your crown or my HK - If the bass is there, it's going to cause them to dance around on the glass at high volumes. I believe this. Am I wrong? How can I be?

Also, I don't care what quality of gear you have or how pristine the sound is - if beyond a certain level (no matter how clean), I believe your ears will get trashed. You can only go so high till damage sets in. I question that just because it sounds non-irritating/clean/pure/pristine - the mere VOLUME has a limit to ear damage level. There's a limit even if you don't feel it. I believe this. Am I wrong? How can I be?

[Jeff Matthews]

Yes, you're wrong. No offense, though. You DO hear the negs, and that's my point. You think you don't because you don't know what better is. Did you not read my post regarding why I could push more through KHorns than Corns, yet it seemed so much clearer and effortless?

[Bill H.]

Meagain,

If You and Hubby, are happy with the sound presently- that is all that counts! Period.........!

[Jeff Matthews]

BTW, I agree with BillH. But, if you want to know what "better" sounds like, that's a different story. I think it is just hard for you to imagine how your sound might be better. I can't tell you in any more words because they all start becoming like a Thesaurus. Nor can I tell you in any different words how to get there. A different amp is the only way.

If there wasn't a difference, do you think I would have posted my question re: cranking more volume through KHorns? That was my question - no agenda on my part. I just experienced it and asked why.

[meagain]

Jeff - Yes, I read the 'volume' thread. You went from Cornwalls to Khorns and I understand why you could crank the Khorns louder.

BillH - We are not happy with the sound. I 'know' they can sound better. We want to tweak things but don't have the means to do so. Hence it's looking like we're going to buy this Behringer EQ that's been discussed here. But what I'm saying is, the current sound does not suffer or change when we crank it which is my issue with needing a bazillion more WPC. They are suggesting I have more distortion, less dynamics, less punch, clipping, etc. and I'm just not getting that with a volume crank. We're just not hearing it. I love how these sound loud. There's just certain 'qualities' we would tweak but currently cannot. But to say we lose anything or the sound suffers at high volumes just by virtue of turning it up - wouldn't be accurate in my experience. The quality seems consistant when cranked seriously loud.

[Jeff Matthews]

Jeff - Yes, I read the 'volume' thread. You went from Cornwalls to Khorns and I understand why you could crank the Khorns louder.

BillH - We are not happy with the sound. I 'know' they can sound better. We want to tweak things but don't have the means to do so. Hence it's looking like we're going to buy this Behringer EQ that's been discussed here. But what I'm saying is, the current sound does not suffer or change when we crank it which is my issue with needing a bazillion more WPC. They are suggesting I have more distortion, less dynamics, less punch, clipping, etc. and I'm just not getting that with a volume crank. We're just not hearing it. I love how these sound loud. There's just certain 'qualities' we would tweak but currently cannot. But to say we lose anything or the sound suffers at high volumes just by virtue of turning it up - wouldn't be accurate in my experience. The quality seems consistant when cranked seriously loud.

That's where you're mistaken. The EQ will not effect the dynamics like what you're suggesting. You can raise the bass level, and you'll get more bass - but it still won't punch. You need power for that.

...... And you still keep contending you don't hear any "suffering sound." You do. You don't know what suffering is. It's in the lack of dynamics. You need raw power to make the bass punch. That goes for the mids, too. Play with an EQ, but you'll never get there.

I could give you another analogy. The "clap" sound in Rush's "YYZ." Raw power transfers from a "clap" to a "POW!!!!!" But alas, my analogy will fail, because you will tell me you are already hearing a "POW!!!!" ................ You are not, and you think you are.

So, go get the EQ so you can start a new thread on what you're still missing. [] LOL!!!

[Jeff Matthews]

Or..... you could think of it this way. With the KHorns, you have a fierce lion in a cage. Assuming your perception that the sound is not "suffering," okay, fine - but your not letting the lion out of the cage.

An EQ would be no help. You can smile and be delighted at the ferocity of the lion behind the bars, but your reaction is different when the bars are gone.

[meagain]

That's where you're mistaken. The EQ will not effect the dynamics like what you're suggesting. You can raise the bass level, and you'll get more bass - but it still won't punch. You need power for that.

But we love the bass. Don't need more and what's there is beyond punch. It's the one area we're thrilled with. To us, it's deep, tight, & punchy. It's the last thing we have an issue with.

...... And you still keep contending you don't hear any "suffering sound." You do. You don't know what suffering is. It's in the lack of dynamics. You need raw power to make the bass punch. That goes for the mids, too. Play with an EQ, but you'll never get there.

I could give you another analogy. The "clap" sound in Rush's "YYZ." Raw power transfers from a "clap" to a "POW!!!!!" But alas, my analogy will fail, because you will tell me you are already hearing a "POW!!!!" ................ You are not, and you think you are.

So, go get the EQ so you can start a new thread on what you're still missing. [] LOL!!!

First - I only have YYZ on the Rio DVD for some reason so I don't think it would be a good test as I'm not fond of Rio's sound quality.

2nd - I believe the EQ will get me more in the ballpark. I don't expect it to be a panacea. But my listening room isn't pristine. There's probably a zillion things in the physical setup that is affecting my sound negatively. While we plan to remodel the house to create a better room, it's still not going to be pro level. I'm not going to put panels everywhere, etc. I feel the EQ will 1) tell me alot about my system & where its lacking, 2) help me to attain better sound with the given circumstances and 3) be able to be used in various situations as well as even allow hubby to take it to band practice to do things with it. But most of all 4) even if I ramp up to foofoo tubes, pre-amps, mega gear - I feel I'll always have to contend with the room and can tweak things even if minorly to get more towards nirvana. For $280-300, it just makes practical sense to me. At least as a first buy. Jeff - Maybe if you got one, YOU'D have better sound. Maybe you can't imagine it possible, but you never know! []

I'm certainly willing to ramp up to tubes or your Crown stuff, etc. But right now I'm thinking this EQ might help. In the meantime, I'll ask hubby if he has any amps at practice that we can play with. I doubt it tho'. Mark here offered to bring over his McIntosh which I hope I don't fall in love with cuz I think it's roughly a $2500-3000 piece.

I'm not saying the speakers aren't suffering. Just that they don't suffer more or get worse when at louder volumes.

[ricktate]

Well if your not able to try the HK430 go to high end stereo shop tell them you would like to buy a good amp..intergrated=with tone controls...power amp=no tone controls .Most will let you try amps in home if they are sure you will buy from them.But let me say this the HK430 may only have 25 watts but it sure seems good to me and a lot of other members im hard pressed to go past 9 oclock on the volume knob.But you are right its not a new or AV reciever ..to get that have to go to Rotel,BK,Outlaw etc.Hey Outlaw will send you amp to let you try no questions asked and alot of members have them to.Did you check polarity?check all conetions and the one on the woofer door?start with the basics.And new oil caps to bring your AAs back to spec dont cost very much from BEC.OK lets see what we got so far... try new amp=no cost....check connections,polarity=no cost....get new caps from Bob very little cost.Then you have more info on what you need... right now your shooting in the dark.Rick

[Jeff Matthews]

Actually, I did have an EQ before. It went away after I got my Crown - no lie.

Here's more of a mathematical/visual way to show what you're missing...

Music is a combo of sounds at various levels. The variance in levels is constantly changing - that's what is meant by dynamics.

Now, picture each of the notes (by arbitray assignment of levels):

10

40

100

30

70

240

10

15

400

30

60

120

130

20

20

200

250

200

Convert these to height where the first note starts on the left, and each note is to the right of the preceding note. In other words, you'd have a graph with a bunch of vertical lines - some taller than others. Go ahead and draw it out for a good exercise. Won't take 20 seconds.

Now, draw a horizontal line at 65 straight through all those vertical lines. What you're missing is everything above the horizontal line at 65. The result by capping everything at 65 is loss of dynamics.

An EQ will not replace that.

[jpm]

pick up a Carver Pro ZR1600 tripath amp and a BBE 482i - you're done

bottom line, massive power cures all ills

Klipsh speakers run okay on moderate power; some systems sound pretty good... but...

you guys that insist on screwin around with receivers, old dusty low power tube amps, integrated amps and anything under 150 watts will never hear the full potential of a Klipsch speaker

go ahead and call BS, it's true

[Jeff Matthews]

Thank you, JPM. You are a wise person. I think my example is dead on, except I'd add that the number of notes in a song, multiplied by the number of instruments, is in the thousands. So without the headroom, very much will be missed. The whole song will sound different. Headroom is not just for gimmick notes or highlights. It affects the whole song.

[Allan Songer]

Klipsh speakers run okay on moderate power; some systems sound pretty good... but...

you guys that insist on screwin around with receivers, old dusty low power tube amps, integrated amps and anything under 150 watts will never hear the full potential of a Klipsch speaker

go ahead and call BS, it's true

Nonsense

[jpm]

not nonsense, fact

[www.records]

Meagain, I would strongly suggest slowing down a bit and keep listening to your current system. Take the gentleman up on his offer to bring over his McIntosh for you to listen to see if this might be a direction you would want to move in the future.

If you listen and choose wisely, you will be amazed and what you can do for very little investment.

You might consider having a different system for use with the TV and having a seperate system for your music. You could use your KG4's with your current Video/TV setup and concentrate on a seperate amp for your Khorns.

Patience is important and will bring you long term happiness. Plus it is easier on the pocketbook. Plan on having your system where you want it a year or so down the road and in the meantime, enjoy what you have. You will appreciate each upgrade that much more. Then sit back and enjoy the music. Your system will be better than 99.999% of what most people listen to.

I have never owned Khorns, but have dreamed of a pair for a very long time. I ran across a very good deal on a pair of Altec 604 duplex studio monitors this year for $150 and patiently looked for something with tubes. I talked to alot of people locally and got a lead on a pair of McIntosh MC40 tube amps for $600 and am experiencing a slice of heaven. In the meantime, I listened to them hooked up to a 70's Marantz 2252B receiver and enjoyed it, but the Mc40's put me into a whole other audio world.

Enough of my rambling.

-Steve

[Allan Songer]

not nonsense, fact

Nonsense

[jpm]

fact