aviserated Posted December 25, 2005 Author Share Posted December 25, 2005 Did you try different types of tubes? I did not like Svetlana EL 34s in my cayin TA 30 tube amp midrange sounded very forward and hard/ harsh. I then tried Elctro Harmonix 6CA7s which is a industrial version of the EL 34s and it had much better bass and a smoother midrange. If you have not tried this form of tone controls give it a try. Oh yeah it's Christmas, have a great one!! Xman I emailed ASL and told them my tube amp sounded very forward and bright with my speakers. He responded by saying "try some Old Stock Mullard 12au7 preamp tubes to maybe correct the problem". This is a "very expensive" form of tone control I may try latter. Merry Christmas everyone and Happy Birthday to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 rather than fight over hopelessly out dated shelving type " Tone " controls ... why not take a real step up to Digital EQ.........???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 But when I listen to a cd and it is lacking in bass or it has too much highs or not enough then why suffer? Because the sound engineer at the recording studio or the band decided it should have weak bass, or too bright--wrong I don't think so. as Who has stated many times, weak bass can be a playback Level problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 Once you get to a certain level of gear, tone controls are easy to live without. It's not an easy thing to accept until you experience it. And yes, tone controls do have their place, as do Loudness compensation circuits. In my case though, I'll accept the fact that when I listen to something quietly, it will sound quiet. If I want it to sound loud, I'll turn it up. I realize not everyone is happy with that limitation, and might want things to sound loud all the time. The trouble is, those tend to be the guys that go on and on about dynamics... too funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 rather than fight over hopelessly out dated shelving type " Tone " controls ... why not take a real step up to Digital EQ.........???? I agree with that. I'd prefer to use a good quality analog parametric, but they seem to be tough to figure out for some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 Why all the secrecy regarding this tube amp you tried? Was it an integrated unit, was it a power amp, and if so what preamp were you using with it? Your post has no value because you didn't give us any information. There are several factors that probably contributed to your outcome, but suffice it to say the great majority of tube users on this forum have no idea what you're talking about. A quality and properly integrated tube system can give you just as much slam as good solid state, and can do a few things that solid state cannot -- regardless of cost. You may have had an impedance mismatch between amp and preamp, or a tube design that didn't respond well to the wide fluctuations in impedance inherent with the stock filters -- which are quite reactive in nature. I agree with you that different filters change the "tone" (for lack of a better word) of the speaker. Ben is correct however, it's not same as doing it with tone controls or EQ. You're taking a very complex subject and grossly oversimplifying it. Why single out my work? I sell one filter for the Klipschorn/Belle Klipsch/LaScala, and two for the Cornwall. They are sound designs and built with great parts. They utilize the standard and accepted transition points between the drivers, the same slopes, offer impedance correction so the transition points remain stable across all frequencies, provide squawker attenuation options to account for differences in room acoustics or individual taste -- and do it all without completely altering the sonic signature of the speakers we've all grown to love. Cleanliness and transparency are the hallmarks of a good filter, and you aren't going to get that jacking around with tone controls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviserated Posted December 25, 2005 Author Share Posted December 25, 2005 Cleanliness and transparency are the hallmarks of a good filter, and you aren't going to get that jacking around with tone controls. You are wrong, you can get good transparency using tone controls. My system "depending on the speaker I use" has plenty of transparency and cleanliness when played back through my tone controlled B&K system. Although some of my speakers are more transparent than others. 1. My self built Fostex FE167E are the most transparent. 2. Sonus Faber Grand Piano Homes are a close second. 3. Klipsch Forte II are the most dynamic but less transparent of the three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 O.K., I'm wrong, you win. If you haven't yanked the crappy mylars they put in your Forte II's then I can understand why you wouldn't think them very transparent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviserated Posted December 25, 2005 Author Share Posted December 25, 2005 Does anyone else have a better recommendation of the perfect "universal amplification" that will play a wide veriety of different music without the listeners ear feeling fatigued, especially while listening to some poorly recorded music. The B&K does a very good job at playing all types of music music because of its tone controls, MOSfet transisters and "NOT OVERLY DETAILED SOUND". I would love to hear the digital Bel Canto with some type of EQ in between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviserated Posted December 25, 2005 Author Share Posted December 25, 2005 O.K., I wrong, you win. If you haven't yanked the crappy mylars they put in your Forte II's then I can understand why you wouldn't think them very transparent. Thanks DeanG, How much will it cost me to have my Forte's converted, "transparency reasons only"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 25, 2005 Share Posted December 25, 2005 Ole DeanG, the wise veteran of the 2 Channel forum....Indeed. He's certainly made many a twist and turn. It would be interesting to hear his xovers. Perhaps some day - I'd like to give them a go. I've entered many a positive comment on early B&K amplfiers here but you wont see any in my house these days. What I will say is this company used to make some of the most musical, best bang for the buck, bullet-proof solid-state amplifiers I've ever used, especially for the money. I've had the top of the line B&K M200 Sonata Monoblocks and their bottom, B&K ST-140 and ST-202. The EX-442 was a great amp as well as it was basically the M200 but in one chassis instead of monoblocks without the dedicated power supplies. Their Pro 10MC was a great minimalist preamp (for SS, that is) with a bypass option of the line stage, and quite a different animal from the complexity in the latest B&K preamps. I would easily rank the little B&K ST-202 140Wpc MOSfet amp as one of the least expensive, most musical solid-state amplifiers I've ever had in my system (and a step up from the overachiever ST-140). In the right system, this amp just did little wrong. In my view, you could do a lot worse for much more money(yes, there were better amplifiers but a used ST-202 would bring many a smile). I generally prefer better Mosfet amps over bipolar for the most fleshed out midrange and natural presentation, especially in this price range. In my view, amps like B&K walked all over many amps of the era in this price range. You hear people talk of Crown, Phase Linear, Dynaco, and other SS of this ilk that you saw usually powering pro gear. Inserted in a home system, dedicated to music, there was no comparison in my book. The B&K solution was more dimensional and musical, with a more natural midrange and top-end. In my opinion, they were less bright, less in your face, and more refined sounding to boot. The ST-202 and up didnt suffer from the MOSfet mist syndrome you hear about and was more harmonically rich in the tradition of tubes. I will say that all these comments pertain to the B&K amps in the previous company encarnation. They made a sweeping change in the mid 90s and have a whole different philosophy. I have not heard any of their amps since nor ANY of their amps on horns. What finally made me part ways with B&K and solid state amps in general, this after having many excellent makes pass my way, was the fact that a little 40 year old, $100 all tube integrated from EICO made more music, in a more believable fashion than my $4700 of separates anchored by the $2000 B&K M200 Monoblocks. They were on Audiogon within a few months. Ultimately, I have found the best of tube amplification to by more naturally transparent, tonally correct, harmonically faithful, muscially engaging, and just more realistic across the board, bringing the emotion and soul of the musical performance to life in a way that I have not found duplicated via solid state. The latest Tripath digital amps do an excellent job for solid state with horns but after all is said and done, STILL dont replace the musical quality of the better tube amps. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 Kelly, it's good to see you posting again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 "Ole DeanG, the wise veteran of the 2 Channel forum..." Feeling old and tired -- I think that's the price for "wisdom". I think a good tubed preamp should be the heart of every system, and it's amazing what you can get away with if you have that right. "The latest Tripath digital amps do an excellent job for solid state with horns but after all is said and done, STILL dont replace the musical quality of the better tube amps." No, but they come frighteningly close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviserated Posted December 26, 2005 Author Share Posted December 26, 2005 I have never tried my little Sonic Impact class-T digital amp with my Klipsch Forte's. I will compare the Sonic with the B&K and post my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan krajewski Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 Thank you for the B&K recommendation. It adds to the list of what works well with Klipsch heritage. Synergy is everything. You don't necessarily have to own tubes to have a great setup. Sometimes enjoying music winds up taking a back seat to worshipping equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 I can't for the life of me understand why anyone likes this Sonic Impact guy. We tried it on the khorns and it sounded appallingly bad. Didn't try the batteries. Used the cord. It was so bad we couldn't finish the song. Perhaps we did something wrong but it's a pretty simple setup - right? It puzzles me why people like this thing. I must be missing something. Aviserated - I'm looking forward to your critque of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 Or, does anyone have a good recommendation for a perfect "universal wine" that will go well with a wide variety of food without tasting coarse and harsh, especially when paired with really greasy fast food?This little analogy seems to go a long way in pointing at the problems with talking about amplifiers in absolutes and does a fine job a pointing to why many that write about it miss one variable or another in makng assessments regarding what is "the" answer to the question of what it means to have the perfect solution. I dont think I have found only one answer here, nor one goal, nor one pat sentence that takes you to nirvana, especially when the goals and means we use to measure and obtain them can shift with subjective ease, despite the attempts otherwise. Placing the goals and solutions of reproducing music within the constraints of a formula or set of measurements also often misses the finishing line (which can be a mobius strip), even if making it possible to get there. In this morning alone, I've read too many threads to count that include a coarse, encompassing statement on something concerning audio, seemingly missing the variables or conditions that make it so, all the while leading those wanting the answer that would fit in an A, B, C, D list to possibly say, "Ohhh...that's it." Posts on compression, bandwidth, headroom, straightwire with gain, minimum watts needed, maximum watts satisfied, are left with holes so large, one could erect a circus tent within, and have room for the trapeze wire act. Yet it all seems to stumble forward, sometimes coming full circle before the awareness factor comes aboard. It's an interesting ride as absolutes get bent and statements get erased. And then there's the music... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 Or, does anyone have a good recommendation for a perfect "universal wine" that will go well with a wide variety of food without tasting coarse and harsh, especially when paired with really greasy fast food? md Any of these should do nicely: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 I too was somewhat underwhelmed with my Teac digital amp, it did not get frightingly close to my tube amp but it did sound great bang for buck-wsie...it drives my patio speakers nicely though. I have heard a few really great ss amps in my system though, the three that stood out were Krell, Levinson and McIntosh products. In the end what constitutes a great amp is largely system dependant IMHO, what other peices of equipment are you using? in what room? what music do you love and listen too? the best amp will be whatever gets your rocks off in that specific environment, it's a taste thing in the end. I BET that many of the consensus top picks in amplification would sound like crap to me in my system but would sound heavenly to others in other systems, such is the hobby... best regards, Tony BTW buying a Bel Canto is just going to get you a nice implementation of the Tripath (and now IcePower) digital amps, I would first try to Teac or SI unit and if you really like it you can jump up to Bel Canto (or some of the others riding on tripath's back like Jeff Rowland) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 26, 2005 Share Posted December 26, 2005 Any of these should do nicely: Until the time comes, as the great Merle Haggard put it: Well I've always had a bottle I could turn to And lately I've been turning every day But tonight the wine don't take effect the way it used to And now I'm hurting in an old familiar way Tonight the bottle let me down And let your memory come around The one true friend I thought I'd found But tonight the bottle let me down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.