"Headroom" - what does it sound like to you?

[maxg]

Jeff,

You are going all over the park on this one now. I have inserted a few comments that might help...

I've noticed along the way that everyone who has high-powered SS amps driving their Klipsch has been consistent in describing the improved dynamics and what a huge difference it makes.

And you are assuming that is is the greater wpc rating that is doing this. It might be for anyone not using highly sensitive speakers like Klipsch, or for anyone using an amp (low power or otherwise) with their Klipsch speakers that cannot cope with the impedance swingsv inherent in Klipsch design.

There has only been 1 (maybe 2) who berated a high-powered amp that they either used to have or heard before. The rest have simply said "too loud, too loud."

It is not a case of berating high powered amps - it is a case of using the proper tools for the job you need to do. The "too loud" comments were entirely in response to your original claims that you listened at volumes that 20 wpc could not get you - using KHorns.

As we have established that 20 watts can push over 116 dB @ 1 meter - guess what - too loud applies!!

For this inquiry, I'd like to not have responses from those who used to have, or heard before, but do not currently have high-output amps. In other words, I'm wanting to know if anyone on this forum currently has a high-powered amp that they would say is rivaled by a 40 or 60-watter in terms of sound quality when played at a volume higher than moderate - but not necessarily cranked big-time.

Well I am almost in this camp. My amp history is as follows (in chronological order - earliest first):

Yamaha 75 wpc surround sound amp (492?), Yamaha 90 wpc SS amp (595), Rotel 1080 200 wpc 2 channel amp, Accuphase E211 90 wpc amp, KT88 Tube PP amp - 45 wpc, EL34 Tube Ultralinear 70 wpc amp, Solid State 2 channel amp (which is actually 150 wpc into 8 ohms and not the 200 I thought but it does do 300 wpc into 4 ohms)

My switch from the ultralinear amp to the SS amp was about a month or so ago. This amp is neither better nor worse that the UL amp it replaced and does not appear to be either more dynamic nor go particularly louder despite its 80 wpc advantage. Why? See below.

The reason for excluding those who used to have them or heard them before is because I remember a guy whose initials were TBrennan, who just berated the snot out of Heresies - ranked them a 2 out of 10. I found a thread by him in another forum where merely a year or so before, he was bragging to someone how the Heresies were the best speaker of their class beyond comparison.

It's easy to berate something you don't own.

That is true - it equally applies to people who have not tried a significant number of lower powered amps does it not?

Me, I've got a decent little 30-watt Marantz, and it's not in the ballpark with my Crown in terms of sound quality - not even at moderate volumes (which, to me, are volumes that allow you to still talk to someone without yelling). Seeing as I have both, I think I can speak fairly as to each of them.

First thing - I thought the Marantz was a 90 wpc amp and not a 30. It does not really matter but there are many possible reasons as to why it is not driving your KHorns properly - as in - as well as, if not better than, you high powered amp. Again - see below.

So, if you got a high powered amp (say 200+ watts), tell us whether you think it is rivaled by 40 or 60-watt amps, whether tubes or not. It'd also be cool to know what amp you have and it's power rating.

I think I answered those questions already. I have had amps ranging in power from 45 watts to 200 (as in owned). I have experienced amps ranging in power from 8 watts to 500 on my speakers but only as short term demos. The 8 watter sucked on my system - but so did the 500 watter!!

Now some explanations of amp issues from my own experience.

1. WPC ratings, especially at the lower end of the receiver market are usually somewhat mythcal. Invariably they have neither sufficiently large power supplies to drive 2 or more speakers to anything like the supposed rating nor do they have sufficiently large capacitors to provide that sudden rush of power needed for a dramatic transient.

2. Most WPC ratings are measured with a constant resistive load across the speaker terminals. Few speakers are in fact constant across the frequency range and this is very true for Klipsch speakers in general. When the resistance falls the amp has nothing to "push against" and can almost literally fall over (I experienced this when trying a Quad 988 with my Accuphase E211 amp). As soon as the volume climbed above conversational level the amp shut down as it could not cope with the below 2 ohm resistance of the Quad. The bigger Accuphase - the E406 (or 407 - cant remember) has no such problem with the Quads, but, when we tried the 406 with a pair of Final 0.3 speakers the exact same thing happened - even with the big one. The Final 0.3 speaker drops imedance to about 1.1 ohms in parts of the spectrum - just too low for even the big accuphase.

Whilst very low impedance is problematic - so is very high impedance. Heritage speakers climb to amazingly high levels in part of the spectrum (I seem to recall 35 ohms for the Heresy somewhere along the line). High impedance is too much to push for many amps. When I first got the Heresy and tried it with my Yamaha amp (the 90 watt version) it simply would not move the woofer. No bass whatsoever. Adding a Rotel power amp solved that problem - but not as well as the little 45 wpc KT88 amp I got much later.

3. Power issues - the real ones.

Whatever the wpc rating of your amp it is of vital importance that the power supply is large enough to cope with the demands placed on it. If you have a gradually building cresendo in music there is a constant increase in uptake of power from the supply and it has to be able to deliver. When the power supply is too small it runs out of power and the amp clips.

There is another issue however. For sudden power demands no power supply can react quickly enough. Think of Beethoven's fifth symphony - the opening - silence followed by BA BA BA BAAAAAAM, BA BA BA BAAAAAM. That is not a gradual build up - that is a very sudden demand - and the power for that comes from the capacitors in the amp. Again - if you do not have sufficient capacitance in your amp if will clip EVEN IF THE POWER SUPPLY IS BIG ENOUGH simply because the power supply cannot react in time.

Now - remember when I said that moving from my ultralinear amp to my bigger SS amp gave no benefit (other than practical - tubes need too much care for me right now). That UL amp had a simply massive power supply (1 KW) and huge capacitance. To illustrate that - when I switched the amp off - during playback it would continue to play for about a minute - purely from the capacitance (at a very gradually decreasing volume). Now that is capacitance!

I also said there was no apprecialbe increase in ultimate volume:

My speakers (home built) have a sensitivity of 91 dB and the woofer is rated to 100 wpc. Running over 100 wpc therefore will merely damage the woofer.

70 wpc running flat out should yield a little over 18 dB gain which equates to 107 dB.

100 wpc (the maximum for the speaker) yields a gain of 20 dB which equates to 109 dB.

Interestingly if my woofer could take it 150 wpc gives me 110 dB.

Not big differences. a 2dB variation is not easy to spot (possible sure - but not easy).

Final bits:

When you are using a power amp and separate per-amp it is probably more important to ensure that you do not have an imedance mismatch between the 2 than getting the maximum amp power. This is something I only confirmed very recently (on installing a sub) but probably goes a long way to explaining why the 500 wpc amp was so appalling on my system.

That Krell you mentioned will not be 300 wpc CLASS A throughout its range. Many amps are class A for the first watts (usually upto about 30) and then switch into AB mode higher up the power curve. Class A generates too much heat to be used much over 30 watts - except for a very small number of amps that are about the size of a small condominium.

There is a gentleman on this forum who makes what I understand to be a very nice 60 wpc tube amp designed specifically for Klipsch speakers. There might be someone near you who has one and you could go and hear it. If it is half as good as I understand it to be it will smoke your high power amp and lose nothing in dynamics to it. You might want to chat to Nosvalves.

[Chris Robinson]

IMHO, it's hard to believe this thread is still going [] I would have given it one page at the outset.

My idea of headroom is a nice comfortable Moose River felt top in a 7-3/4. Keeps the rain off the chrome dome.

[sfogg]

Bill,

"But 120 decibels is 15 decibels above the 105 and is a number that I can easily accept. I made a bit of progress."

You don't have 120dB of dynamic range in your system. If you play back at peaks of 105dB if the rest of your system was dead quiet (noise floor of 0dB) your system your dynamic range would be 105dB. The rest of your system isn't dead quiet so your dynamic range is lower yet... but 40dB or more most likely.

"Another way to look at this would be that if you want the ability to hit 30 decibel dynamic peaks over 85 decibels (commercial theater levels), "

Again... commercial cinemas use the same playback levels as a home system at reference level.

The only difference is they calibrate to 85dB using a -20dB recorded noise source. 85 + 20 = 105dB

And around here few actually playback at that level, they get too many complaints when they do.

"Those very plain little black boxes together can put out 130 decibels at 30 Hz and 122 decibels at 20 Hz. "

Source of those numbers and at what distortion level? Measured in free space or in room?

" The points in all of this are the the rest of the "system" should be able to keep up relative to the subs performance."

Why? The subs have 10dB more output needed then the mains.

"Klipsch uses a 500 wpc x2 amp for just the LFE range with the Ultra2 subs. And then folks complain about similar power to RF-7s"

The subs aren't as efficient as the RF-7s. The subs also have to be able to play 10dB louder then the mains. The subs are also covering the area with the majority of the power in the movies.

Why do you think I have three channels of 1200w per channel to each of my three subwoofers?

While at the same time running about 9w per channel for the tweeters and mids and about 30w for the woofers in my speakers.

" how many decibels of additional headroom should a fellow have for his mains? "

If you have even 1dB of headroom before the amps/speakers start to get nasty that is enough if you stick to reference level playback as your max setting.

"Any good engineer will build in a margin of safety. "

Any good engineer will also understand the requirements of the system and design/build to satisfy that.

Shawn

[sfogg]

"Now, tell me, if your running 200-watts, where does the excess go? "

Surely you don't think that just because you plug a 200w amp into the wall it is always putting out 200w?

". I would think if I extended your math, the 200 watts goes beyond the rated max SPL of Klipschorns. "

Yes, it does... it is also above the rated max power limit of the K'Horns.

"Now why would some one with money like that do something like buy a 300wpc amp to play through his "Most efficient speakers" Klipsch. Especially when we all know he could have the same sound with"

The more important question of course would be why is he selling it?

As far as why he bought it you have no idea why. People do all sorts of wacky things in the world of audio and to use anything like that as 'proof' is just sad.

" The amp takes control and you know what real music can sound like, tighter, deeper bass...faster."

So what? That may have nothing to do with the wattage alone.

"Sweet highs that go on forever but do not roll off. "

A K77 rolls off... badly.....

" I'd like to not have responses from those who used to have, or heard before, but do not currently have high-output amps. "

I use to run Crown K2s (500w/ch) on my pre-Klipsch speakers. The Crown's replaced Sunfires original stereo amp (300w/ch).

With 9w on the tweeter, 9w on the mid and 30w to the woofer my 'LaScala's have no problem at all playing louder/cleaner with far more ease then my other speakers did with 500w on them.

The K2s are still in the system running the subs.

Shawn

[Jeff Matthews]

Max, I'm fatigued. I hear you, though, but it's alot to address. I guess I just got lucky finding one of the few high-powered amps out there that handles the important qualities you discussed.

Now, I wonder where all that power is getting used up in my system?

And the Marantz I used to have yeard ago was 90 watts. The one I have now is 30 (actually, it's my wife's - I didn't trade down).

Now, a 60-watter tube can smoke mine? I take it that you refer to a combined loudness and beatiful sounding music? I believe Born2RockU has these VRD's, and he lives nearby. I'll have to catch up with him.

[Duke Spinner]

" Headroom "

what a mess, Ben ..!

[meagain]

Jeff - Buy Borntorocku's amp. Don't know how many wpc is, but it looks like an affordable starting price. If it doesn't work, just put it back on Ebay.

[Allan Songer]

20 minutes into the future . . .

[www.records]

I have been following this thread from it's start. Why? I really don't know at this point.

I have made a couple of observations.

It is clearly evident that Jeff is on a mission to convert everyone to his way of listening. I don't know if he is destined to become a tent evangelist or a door to door Amway salesman, but he is ruthless in his attempt to convert.

Jeff, why is it that you can't accept the fact that all music lovers don't fall into the camp of listening that you do? There is no way I would listen at the SPL that you enjoy. Why? It isn't relaxing. I actually feel it would be stressful, which is not why I listen to music. When I was young it would have been important to me, but I have grown older and my taste and appreciation of the music has changed. I imagine as you get older, this might change for you also. Do I need 300 watts to enjoy 85db listening? I don't think so. If what you say is true, then wouldn't everyone only want high watts systems? If that were the case, why would any manufacturer market smaller watt units? As you can see, well apparently you can't, there are amps built for all types of music listeners. Just because you prefer mega watts, and there are others who also fall into your camp does not mean that mega watts is best for everyone.

I don't know how old you are, but from your posts, you seem pretty immature, so I would guess you are pretty young. Give it a rest. Enjoy what you have. Everyone that reads here knows exactly what you enjoy and they have not tried to convert you. So please quit your revival of trying to convert everyone else. If any of us find our listening becoming lacking, some might consider your unending rant. But until then, accept that we are very happy with our hardware and the results we are enjoying.

What type of jelly do you like on your toast? Do we all have to like the same flavor? Is it that important? Give it a rest and enjoy your music. That is what I plan on doing.

-Steve

[Allan Songer]

For a more dynamic breakfast there is no substitute for fig preserves.

The DIY solution:

FIG PRESERVES (SYKO GLYKO)

50 sm Green figs

Blanched almonds (optional)

3 c Sugar

3 c Water

1 tb Lemon juice

1 Strip of grapefruit peel

-OR- lemon peel

Wash figs and trim stems. Place figs in a large pan and cover with boiling

water. Bring to a the boil and boil gently, uncovered, for 15 minutes.

Drain and rinse with hot water. Return to pan and cover again with boiling

water. Repeat boiling and draining process four times in all. Cook until

figs are tender after last change of water (about 1 hour's cooking in all).

Drain figs, rinse with cold water and spread out on paper towels to dry.

Insert a whole or split almond into base of each fig if desired.

In a clean pan bring sugar and water to the boil. Add lemon juice and

grapefruit or lemon peel and boil for 10 minutes. Add figs and boil over

moderate heat for 10 minutes, skimming when necessary. Cover pan and leave

overnight.

Next day bring pan contents slowly to the boil and boil gently until syrup

is thick when tested. Put figs and syrup into sterilised jars, seal and

store in a cool place.

Testing syrup: Drip a little syrup onto a cold plate. If drops do not

spread, syrup is ready. If you have a sugar thermometer, cook to a

temperature of 105 C (220 F).

[jacksonbart]

I wonder if our education system would be more effective if it taught people how to think & learn rather than to memorize the Gettysburg Address and primary exports of Bolivia.

[Jeff Matthews]

Jeff - Buy Borntorocku's amp. Don't know how many wpc is, but it looks like an affordable starting price. If it doesn't work, just put it back on Ebay.

Meagain, I know exactly what you mean by that one. LOL!! That's why I always suggest listening to someone else's w/o buying.

[meagain]

What the heck kind of fish is that. It's beautiful. You let it go - yes?

Jeff - I contend you cannot visit someone for a listen. You have to have it in YOUR room. Otherwise - not a good test. Buy it & start a thread when hooked up.

[Jeff Matthews]

I have been following this thread from it's start. Why? I really don't know at this point.

I have made a couple of observations.

It is clearly evident that Jeff is on a mission to convert everyone to his way of listening. I don't know if he is destined to become a tent evangelist or a door to door Amway salesman, but he is ruthless in his attempt to convert.

Jeff, why is it that you can't accept the fact that all music lovers don't fall into the camp of listening that you do? There is no way I would listen at the SPL that you enjoy. Why? It isn't relaxing. I actually feel it would be stressful, which is not why I listen to music. When I was young it would have been important to me, but I have grown older and my taste and appreciation of the music has changed. I imagine as you get older, this might change for you also. Do I need 300 watts to enjoy 85db listening? I don't think so. If what you say is true, then wouldn't everyone only want high watts systems? If that were the case, why would any manufacturer market smaller watt units? As you can see, well apparently you can't, there are amps built for all types of music listeners. Just because you prefer mega watts, and there are others who also fall into your camp does not mean that mega watts is best for everyone.

I don't know how old you are, but from your posts, you seem pretty immature, so I would guess you are pretty young. Give it a rest. Enjoy what you have. Everyone that reads here knows exactly what you enjoy and they have not tried to convert you. So please quit your revival of trying to convert everyone else. If any of us find our listening becoming lacking, some might consider your unending rant. But until then, accept that we are very happy with our hardware and the results we are enjoying.

What type of jelly do you like on your toast? Do we all have to like the same flavor? Is it that important? Give it a rest and enjoy your music. That is what I plan on doing.

-Steve

Aw, Steve.... and only on your 8th post. It's too bad when you have to start throwing little insults like "immature" at somebody who you clearly don't know. That you guessed I was "pretty young" and "immature" goes to show what you know by sitting behind your keyboard and not getting to know somebody. Actually, I'm 37 and have been practicing civil litigation and appellate work since graduating from UT Law in 1993. Not that my resume should have anything to do with this debate.

And you assumed my "mission" without asking me what it was. That, too, is your mistake and goes to show your lack of how to approach an issue. You'll get that with a little more maturity (in case you've already aged too far). My mission is not to convert anybody to liking sound the way I do. It is to suggest they might like it if they tried it. If they tried it, and they don't, so be it.

How's that for a "mature" approach?

Also, the discussion is "what does headroom sound like?" I think it was posed to obtain a description to folks who do not know. That would be the appropriate audience. Not that the author of the question itself doesn't know what it sounds like. He/she might, but just posed the question rhetorically. Nonetheless the audience remains the same.

Okay, Steve, crawl back into your cubby, now. []

[Jeff Matthews]

What the heck kind of fish is that. It's beautiful. You let it go - yes?

Jeff - I contend you cannot visit someone for a listen. You have to have it in YOUR room. Otherwise - not a good test. Buy it & start a thread when hooked up.

LOL, meagain, but on the other hand, I think I should hear it at their house, and if I like it, I'll make an offer on the amp AND their house. []

[MarkBK]

For a more dynamic breakfast there is no substitute for fig preserves.

The DIY solution:

FIG PRESERVES (SYKO GLYKO)

50 sm Green figs

Blanched almonds (optional)

3 c Sugar

3 c Water

1 tb Lemon juice

1 Strip of grapefruit peel

-OR- lemon peel

Wash figs and trim stems. Place figs in a large pan and cover with boiling

water. Bring to a the boil and boil gently, uncovered, for 15 minutes.

Drain and rinse with hot water. Return to pan and cover again with boiling

water. Repeat boiling and draining process four times in all. Cook until

figs are tender after last change of water (about 1 hour's cooking in all).

Drain figs, rinse with cold water and spread out on paper towels to dry.

Insert a whole or split almond into base of each fig if desired.

In a clean pan bring sugar and water to the boil. Add lemon juice and

grapefruit or lemon peel and boil for 10 minutes. Add figs and boil over

moderate heat for 10 minutes, skimming when necessary. Cover pan and leave

overnight.

Next day bring pan contents slowly to the boil and boil gently until syrup

is thick when tested. Put figs and syrup into sterilised jars, seal and

store in a cool place.

Testing syrup: Drip a little syrup onto a cold plate. If drops do not

spread, syrup is ready. If you have a sugar thermometer, cook to a

temperature of 105 C (220 F).

Good One Allan!

[pauln]

Jeff, looks like the only way to settle this is to go to court. Since yours is a legal mind... I hope you like this...

=============

We are ready, your Honor.

We stipulate that Klipsch is to be considered an expert witness as the designer and manufacturer of their speakers, has direct experience, research, and knowledge to make definitive statements about the performance and specifications of their products, is definitive concerning acoustic physics relating to how loud are live symphonic performances and rock concerts.

We further stipulate that Dope from Hope is an accurate reflection of Klipsch testimony and may be admitted with the standing of a deposition.

Submitted and entered into evidence:

Exhibit 1: Dope from Hope from earlier in this thread.

Testimony will be informal in the narrative form:

First it makes a reference on page one to full symphonic level (FSL). Lets find out how loud this is (let's suppose I want to hear classical symphonic music in my home at FSL as in the performance hall). Page one says FSL is 10 to 20 dB less than what they reference as "live rock performances" levels. So, how loud are those rock concerts? A few lines down they state that live rock concerts average 100-115dB with peaks of 10dB. That means peaks from 110 to 125dB.

We will assume that the same things are being compared here, i.e., average levels.

Back to the first question - how loud is FSL?

Demonstration:

The general equation is:

FSL = [Rock Concert] - [Difference]

FSL = [100 to 115dB] - [10 to 20dB]

Of the possible combinations, let's examine the four extreme cases [Hi Hi, Hi Lo, Lo, Hi, and Lo Lo], and the average case - understanding that the average case will involve averages of dB ranges which are logarithmic rather than linear - which means (no pun intended) that the result will be somewhat higher (louder).

Exhibit 2: FSL calculation (all FSL results in dB).

Hi Hi FSL = 115 - 20 = 95

Hi Lo FSL = 115 - 10 = 105

Lo Hi FSL = 100 - 20 = 80

Lo Lo FSL = 100 - 10 = 90

Ave. FSL = ((115+100)/2) - ((20+10)/2) = 107.5 - 15 = 92.5

Summary of above calculations:

The extreme case of interest is the Hi Lo (loudest rock concert used as the standard to estimate the FSL for the least loudest of symphonic performance case. The result is full symphonic levels are 105dB (with 10db peaks).

Exhibit 3: Loudness dB watt chart from Dope from Hope

The second page has a chart returning the dB level for a single speaker in a room. This accounts for the room, too. You don't have to do the conversions from 3 ft or 1 m. With two speakers it states you get the same dB by halving the watts... so in the case of the KH, LS , and B you have:

85dB .03 watts

90 .10

95 .315

100 1.0

105 3.15

110 10.0

(115dB will be 31.5 watts, not shown in the chart)

These are all with 10dB headroom.

Summation:

Live Full Symphonic Level (105dB) is produced with 10dB of headroom at 3.15 watts. (SETs?)

Out of order!

Sustained

Live Rock Concert Level (100 - 115dB) is produced with 10dB of headroom from 1 watt up to 31.5 watts (my extrapolation)

We rest, your Honor.

How do you find?

==============

Now that was fun!

Pauln

[Spkrdctr]

I have kept up with this thread, as it has many problems with it. But, to just cut to the chase, some Kipschoholics need to get laid!!!!![]

I could have gone with the scientific angle, but figured the sex issue should come first! Oh and by the way, mines bigger than yours........[]

[Spkrdctr]

I hope you all found the humor in the above post......[]

[edwinr]

I would like to compare, Spkrdctr, but unfortunatley, a few years ago when I was chasing this kangaroo, it jumped over a barbed wire fence. I attempted to follow, but I didn't jump quite high enough...

I left the best part of me behind. []