Spectrum Analyzer Results & Jeff's Take on the US Tax System!

[Jeff Matthews]

I just wonder whether the old speakers exhibited the same differences between left and right as the new ones.

On the EQ, I don't have a great affinity for them because the music should sound just fine with tone controls at flat. But even if you want to use the EQ to change the tone, it won't hurt the sound quality as much as some here proclaim - really, probably not at all.

Here's my point. If your system sounds good without an EQ, it'll sound good with one.

If your system sounds like crap, an EQ won't remove the stink from the air.

EQ's are a glorified volume control - just like tone controls. Whatever characteristic you aren't liking out of the right speaker, with an EQ, you will be magnifying the characteristic. Or, you will be turning down the offending section and dragging down alot of good stuff with it.

Remember Dolby? That was my little joke that cracked up Duke, earlier. With Dolby, you could reduce hiss, but it was at great expense to the good characteristics of alot of the high frequencies. It literally sucked the detailed highs right out of the song.

That's what you will get with an EQ - less of something you don't like and less of alot of things that you do. Or, more of alot of things you like and more of what you don't. It will throw the baby out with the bath water.

So, the favorable reviews you are getting on this EQ are from people who I'd wager have systems that sounded good without them. I doubt they had some awful, tubby sounding system, and that adding an EQ made it shine.

[Jeff Matthews]

Are you sure you don't have a blown tweet in the right? Probably a dumb question with as much listening as you've done, but it can be hard to notice that a tweet is not working, and the sound will become tubby.

As to why I think it's not a room issue - and I know you all will want to beat me for this - when I bought my Khorns we had to audition them from the middle of the room since there were no good corners available without re-arranging the entire room. They sounded great - even then. My guess is it was because you have the bass blaring straight out the back, and the wavelengths on the lows are pretty long.

Sure, they sound better in corners, but even without corners, they were good. There was no degradation in quality, except only that the soundstage was split.

And on the EQ issue, sorry I come off so closed-minded on the issue. How about this? Get the EQ and tell me what you think. Maybe you'll teach me something. I'm always open to learning something new.

[Deang]

The Behringer is a fantastic value and suprisingly transparent. The RTA and pink noise generator alone are worth the price of admission. Make sure you get the microphone that goes with it. A bit of a learning curve with that unit -- but once you get the hang of it you'll learn a lot about your room and system. The autoEQ feature prevents you from making things worse instead of better.

[78Khorn]

from back in the olden days on page 3:

The anomalies in the left channel as shown in the graph need to be looked at. Best (but not necessarily most convenient) way to address that is to reverse the speakers and re-run the test exactly as run before. See if the anomaly follows the speaker or not. if it does there might be an issue with the speaker itself. if it stays on the left put the speakers back where they were and switch the speaker wires at the amp, run the test again. if the anomaly switches sides there might be an amp problem. if it doesn't switch sides put the speaker wires back where they were and switch the the L & R inputs from the CD player or whatever you're using, see where the anomaly goes. if none of this laborious testing changes anything there's likely an issue with nodes in the room. Obviously it's important to maintain the testing as closely as possible and also to put the stuff back like it was each time, otherwise you're testing the combined effect of changing several variables, which is meaningless. if you run through this basic testing people here will be able to help you get it sorted out. Otherwise, you can get an equalizer and start covering up anomalies by introducing others, which is a long and depressing path to nowhere.

Tom has done a good job of providing the next steps to take should your speakers turn out OK. If the speaker is bad then I'm sure you'll get a get a lot of input on what to look at there also.

[meagain]

Yea, I'm waiting for him to get home & get settled in so we can do this. I already tested the amp part of it.

Then we're going to do a listen with BOTH with old then new x-overs. Then I'm done with the x-over part.

[meagain]

Well, we swapped speaker positions and the issue stayed in the same old places so it's the room. I can stomach this.

We listened to both with old x-overs then new.

Husband heard no change and proclaimed he told me he wouldn't unless a true a/b can be done. OK

I "think" (emphasis 'think'), I heard a change. I played 2 tracks; one from David Sylvian's 'Secrets of the Beehive' (and OMG I sure wish someone here would download that thing so I have someone to talk to about it cuz I think I'm the only one here that has it. I guess I shouldn't have picked such an apparently obscure thing to listen to but I must say I would certainly think an audiophile forum would be familiar with this and I'm dissapointed in Y'all LOL).

Then Steeley dan 'Babylon sister' (ewww!).

On the David stuff, I "think" I heard a bit more pronounced violin, and other slight nuances here & there. And some soft background trumpet I "think" was a bit more forward". I "think".

On the SD.... When they sing 'here come those santa ana winds again' and there's a chimes sound? I "think" the chimes were more pronounced. I "think". And another part I thought was more forward, but I forgot now what it was.

I simply might have listened more intently/differently with the new x-overs? IDK. Maybe if I switched back, they'd still be there. IF (big IF) I hear any improvement, it's beyond subtle.

As much as I HATE to admit it (and trust me, It makes me semi-sad, and this is most painful), but I might be in the Jeff camp on this (pounding head against desk). Husband if fully in Jeff camp.

I'm going to give a listen again, but I'm not being hit with anything much here - if at all. I think changing the caps makes sense for basic maintenance and will likely do that. Probably a DIY if someone can point me in the right direction for the highest quality caps.

What am I missing here? I kinda feel like a failure. [] Did others see big improvement just by replacing caps? Was it pretty obvious?

[3dzapper]

Meaghan,

If you had heard those networks with the old caps that were in them you'd understand a bit better. You are correct, the difference is subtle. After all, they still employ the same circuit, inductors and zener protection as your original ones. Too bad I can't loan you my ALKs. The difference there is much more profound since they are a different, more modern, circuit with adjustablity to address some room issues.

You and your husband seem to have enjoyed this sometime frustrating process. Costs, like a week in Vegas except you have something to show for it in the corners and at worst will break even.-)

My advice, listen to the new ones for a week at least. Let them break in a bit. Then put the old ones in.

Go to alkeng.com and download Al's plans for his ALK type A network for "hubby" to look at. Building them is fun, the results rewarding. Then you get into which sounds better 5 and 2 or 4 and X?

It's time for you guys to relax and enjoy the music!!!

Rick

[78Khorn]

Meagain,

I never tried just new caps. My only experience was with the ALK's networks which was a very noticable improvement. I had read enough good comments on this forum that I went straight to them. The improvement was enough with my Khorns that I bought a pair immediately after purchasing my 1978 Belles also.

Is the speaker position that you are unhappy with the one by the fire place and curtain? I'm trying to recall your pictures. At my old house I had one speaker in a full corner with plenty of wall extending beyond the speaker and one speaker that I had to put a board behind to make a false corner. I never was able to make them sound the same although a equalizer did help. You want to make sure if you are using a false corner that it extends at least 4ft beyond the speaker. I think that there is a minimum length of wall that is recommended to extend beyond the speaker. Someone here on the forum must have that data and can tell you.

[78Khorn]

Rick, what setting did you settle on, 4-x or 5-2? I started on 4-x, went to 5-2 for about 6 months and then when I changed my speakers to the long wall I went back to 4-x.

Tim

[meagain]

Rick/3dzapper - I appreciate you letting me listen to them for another week. Sure that's OK? I think it would be interesting to sort of get used to them a bit, then go without. That might be the best test. I'm going to assume (via reading threads) that full-blown foofoo new x-overs will affect a noticeable improvement. I sent the ALK pages to "hubby" and he's pretty much for the concept in general, but it will take further research to figure out if we went for it balls to the walls - which one would be best.

78 - Yes, the offending side is my fireplace fake wall area. The 1" slab of mdf extends just shy of 4'. I think it was 2" shy. We have foamed the tail boards and the horiz. top of the bass bin. I plan to foam the spot where the mdf is shoved against the concrete ledge of the fireplace tonight or tomorrow to see if things get warmer there. When we turn both speaks on at the same volume - we can't tell it's different so hopefully this Behringer EQ will tweak it and we'll be happy.

[MarkBK]

Well, we swapped speaker positions and the issue stayed in the same old places so it's the room. I can stomach this.

................

I played 2 tracks; one from David Sylvian's 'Secrets of the Beehive' (and OMG I sure wish someone here would download that thing so I have someone to talk to about it cuz I think I'm the only one here that has it. I guess I shouldn't have picked such an apparently obscure thing to listen to but I must say I would certainly think an audiophile forum would be familiar with this and I'm dissapointed in Y'all LOL).

.... .....What am I missing here? I kinda feel like a failure. [] Did others see big improvement just by replacing caps? Was it pretty obvious?

Meagain,

I ordered the David Sylvian CD a few days ago after reading your description. It's on the way.....comments to follow in a few days. Suggested tune(s) you were using would help.

Mark

[meagain]

[] Great! Very cool! He was in Japan back in the 80's. Very cool deep barotone voice. It'll be interesting if you hear the S's & T's like I do on it. Like when he says "Ssssssseptember". Flat out hurts me. And I hear background hiss on many 'pin drop' parts and it'll be interesting if you hear the same. It's a pretty album. Mello, semi-minimalistic, pure & darkish (in tone). No specific song recommendations as the album sort of flows into each song & is an overall mood. Give a good listen, then again - and let me know what you think. He puts out an album like once every 5 years and rarely tours.

Last time I saw him was with when Fripp hooked up with him at Park West. I think I was the only female in the crowd. I was embarrased for my kind.

[ricktate]

Meagain can you borrow another reciever and CD player from someone? All this still sounds fishy to me i dont see a room making the speakers sound that bad since you got carpet in the room to.I think i will have to refer back to PWKs rule ... crap in crap out....lol.Mabe after you listen and try different stuff you will find what is really wrong.I would still try and borrow another reciever or amp just to convince myself.Let us know how its going.Rick

[Jeff Matthews]

Meagain, when you switched the speakers, did you switch the wires going from the receiver to the speakers? (i.e. did you still use the same speaker wires for each speaker, or did you then use the left speaker wire for the right speaker, and vise versa). I bet you did not, but this is a VERY important question.

And..... Lots of talk about room position goes on here because this is a speaker forum. But........ it isn't a room issue - says Jeff with $5 in his hand. []

It isn't the foam - 'nother $5.

Nor is it the MDF - same.

Give us your answer to the question above. We'll find your issue pretty quick.

[MarkBK]

[] Great! Very cool! He was in Japan back in the 80's. Very cool deep barotone voice. It'll be interesting if you hear the S's & T's like I do on it. Like when he says "Ssssssseptember". Flat out hurts me. And I hear background hiss on many 'pin drop' parts and it'll be interesting if you hear the same. It's a pretty album. Mello, semi-minimalistic, pure & darkish (in tone). No specific song recommendations as the album sort of flows into each song & is an overall mood. Give a good listen, then again - and let me know what you think. He puts out an album like once every 5 years and rarely tours.

Last time I saw him was with when Fripp hooked up with him at Park West. I think I was the only female in the crowd. I was embarrased for my kind.

I'll let you know as soon as I get it. Fripp is a musician's musician - which usually means a mostly guys audience - so no surprise on modest representation of females - you attending just makes you "cooler"![]

[meagain]

Ricktate - We hooked up another source to compare to the cd player. No difference. He brought up his gear & did something.

Swapped speaker locations (cords followed speaks) - right side still sounds iffy (as expected) so I guess it's the room.