Duke Spinner Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 don't forget to put on your Magic Hat too, Rick .... you know ... this one .....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 Switched the new crossover to the right. Still sounds worse. Ooops. Something's just plain off with the right, no matter what. Going to flip flop them. Hopefully it's the room & not the speaker. Still, when we put the old crossover in the left, it seemed worse. We retested everything (more properly done) and I'll look at the numbers tomorrow to see the difference the new x-overs afford. I know there are those who say to listen to the old, then put the new x-overs in both, but I'm having a problem getting how we'll remember or be able to compare. We'll do it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 "Switched the new crossover to the right. Still sounds worse." Worse than the original you had in there, or worse compared to the new one that's in the left -- or worse compared to the old one in the left? 1) Start by double checking the connections from the drivers to the network in the right speaker. Trace the wires from the drivers to the barrier strip and make sure you have everything where it belongs. 2) If the wiring checks out, you need to make sure you have a tweeter working in that speaker. Some people have trouble telling, so either disconnect the squawker/midrange at the crossover board, or if you're feeling lazy you can do what I do -- grab pillow and just cover the squawker -- you'll know right away if it's working or not. 3) If the wiring and tweeter check out, move the network to the left speaker. Does it sound the same as it did when you had it in the left, or does it sound as good as it did with the network you just removed? Rick, you sent Jeff some crossovers -- now Meagain has some crossovers from you. Same set? Different? Hiss and sibilance: I agree with Bob. The worse a cap gets the more resistance it has. A network filled with capacitors undergoing dielectric breakdown has noticeably diminshed high frequency response compared to a new network. So, more "gets through", and any downstream noise, and/or every wonderfully obnoxious thing in a recording will be revealed in all its glory. This is why we say to get the speaker right first then work backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 I still think its something simple....change left and right speaker wires while you got good sound in left speaker to make sure amp not making bad sound.Then check all drivers like Dean said.You got left sounding good so figure out whats wrong with right speaker before you waste time moving stuff and getting confused....take your time look at wires, check solder joints,wiggle wires while listening could just be bad wire.Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Well the wire in her picture still seems to be different than mine. See my post above re: this. Nobody seemed to be alarmed, so I guess her wiring is what a xover specialist would expect to see. But apparently, she's hearing qualities in the new xover she's not supposed to hear. Hmmmm.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 "Rick, you sent Jeff some crossovers -- now Meagain has some crossovers from you. Same set? Different?" Dean, in another thread both Meahgan and Jeff were getting all kinds of advice, both good and bad. I had two pairs of old, idle, AAs lying on my shelf and I offered to send each of them a pair with the original worn out oil cans replaced with some decent, not brand name caps, to compare against their older AAs. They agreed to pay postage back to me in exchange. The differences I expected both to report were a decrease in siblance and slight cleaning up of the whole response in general. Nothing as dramatic as replacing AAs with ALKs or (I suspect) your newly designed Super AAs. Just returning their Khorns to the state they were in when they left Hope. I think Meaghan was saying that the recapped networks had the anticipated results but that one of her horns sounds better than the other with both old and new caps. Meaghan, As you are switching corners with your Khorns, look at the mid range drivers. Are there push pin type connectors or are the wires soldered on? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 P-Trap ...?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 "Switched the new crossover to the right. Still sounds worse." Worse than the original you had in there, or worse compared to the new one that's in the left -- or worse compared to the old one in the left? 1) Start by double checking the connections from the drivers to the network in the right speaker. Trace the wires from the drivers to the barrier strip and make sure you have everything where it belongs. 2) If the wiring checks out, you need to make sure you have a tweeter working in that speaker. Some people have trouble telling, so either disconnect the squawker/midrange at the crossover board, or if you're feeling lazy you can do what I do -- grab pillow and just cover the squawker -- you'll know right away if it's working or not. 3) If the wiring and tweeter check out, move the network to the left speaker. Does it sound the same as it did when you had it in the left, or does it sound as good as it did with the network you just removed? Dean - We first put the new x-over in the left & left the old in the right. Comparing the sound from the left to right, the left sounded better. No brainer. Got all excited till we switched the x-overs to have the new one in the right. Right still sounds bad. Same as when it had the old x-over? hard to tell. But the left still sounded better despite now having the old x-over in. The test sort of flew out the window when we realized old or new - the 2 speaks just sound different from each other. 1. Yes - all connections fine. 2. Did that when I got them (newspaper) and everything works. Will try again to try to glean what's amiss? 3. We feel the new x-over made it sound better. As far as hiss. This recording I listed above has this problem. It's the recording. When I posted "less" hiss/sibilance, that was from the left speaker which 'apparently' has less of this issue somehow for us. So it seems while we were hearing a lessening (it's still there) of this issue in the left, it seems to be due to that one speaker or it's placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Rick, Why do you expect a decrease in siblance with the new caps? http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/588199/ShowPost.aspx Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 Rictate - Switching wire/amp ports is what I'll be doing soon today. We also plan on physically switching the 2 speakers to see if it's a placement issue. Being so heavy, and having a diagnostic procedure just b4 xmas (I'm fine) and told to not move over 20 pounds for 2 weeks, plus coming off of some freek stomach virus - means I'm dependent on hubby (sorry Fini) here. Otherwise, things would move much faster. So today I can only do so much. I also plan to address the right speak's physical area. 3dzapper - "I think Meaghan was saying that the recapped networks had the anticipated results but that one of her horns sounds better than the other with both old and new caps."Yep! "Meaghan, As you are switching corners with your Khorns, look at the mid range drivers. Are there push pin type connectors or are the wires soldered on?" Planning to switch them ASAP. Midrange drivers... is that the bell on the end of the horn where the wires touch connect? They appear soldered and attached seriously. All wires look good except that on the right, the squawk wire from the horn's 'hotel bell' drapes over the end of the horn on its way to the x-over. It's touching the horn on the skinny end.. Told hubby to fix it but he didn't. I can't imagine that's a good thing! I guess I can't compare left to right when they are both different to start with (see numbers on first post). I guess this is why we analyzed them separately as a baseline. We tested again before tweaking. Analyzed the left by placing mic facing left, then changed x-overs & took another reading. Same with the right. I'm going to get those numbers emailed to me. Should I post the numbers showing the difference between the x-overs? It should be a most accurate comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 you need to ditch the "mic" idea .. there are waaaay to many Variables Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 But Duke, if ALL things are equal, why is it a poor idea? Despite alledgedly a non-pristine test, I'm taking a reading with the mic on a stand planted said amount of feet pointing at left. Change x-over. Take another reading with the ONLY thing changed being the x-over. It's a test of CHANGES between the two. That's all I'm trying to see. The differences and nothing more. If faults exist in first test, they also exist in 2nd test. But the changes should be valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Bob, To me anyhow, the leaky old caps produce a harshness at the extremes emphasizing the tzz sound in vocals and cymbals. Others may call it something different is there a correct term? Meaghan, Why I ask about the terminals on your K-55 drivers is because of the differences in seriel numbers. Is it possible that you have one push pin K-55 and one solder joint K-55. They do sound slightly different due to their internal design. The push pin type can come back quite strongly at a point centered at 9KHz. This can result in a slightly harsher, beamier treble. It was for that driver that the 9KHz P-trap was developed and AL K designed his network to roll off the squaker above 6 KHz at a sharper rate. The AA relies on the K-55 to crap out over 6KHz on it's own. As for myself, I enjoy the implementation of P-traps even with ALKs in my push pin equipped '77 Khorns. Al though says that they are not necessary. YMMV. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Bob, To me anyhow, the leaky old caps produce a harshness at the extremes emphasizing the tzz sound in vocals and cymbals. Others may call it something different is there a correct term? "Healthy" silabance shows up where you expect to hear it. "Unhealthy" is undue emphasis to the point where it's laced over everything in the treble region. It makes the top sound congested and grainy -- I call it "hash". Meaghan, Why I ask about the terminals on your K-55 drivers is because of the differences in seriel numbers. Is it possible that you have one push pin K-55 and one solder joint K-55. They do sound slightly different due to their internal design. The push pin type can come back quite strongly at a point centered at 9KHz. This can result in a slightly harsher, beamier treble. One might sound slightly different, but it wouldn't sound "bad" compared to the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Bob, To me anyhow, the leaky old caps produce a harshness at the extremes emphasizing the tzz sound in vocals and cymbals. Others may call it something different is there a correct term? "Healthy" silabance shows up where you expect to hear it. "Unhealthy" is undue emphasis to the point where it's laced over everything in the treble region. It makes the top sound congested and grainy -- I call it "hash". Kind of like Dolby! [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Jeff ... yer just killin' me .... BWAAHAHA..........[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 attaching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Ouch!!!!! Hope this starts a new page. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 "Ode to Meagain's KHorns" And it's too late, baby, now it's too late Though we really did try to make it Something inside has died And I can't hide and I just can't fake it [:'(] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted January 4, 2006 Share Posted January 4, 2006 Wow, Glad I do no thave these problems, kinda of like an itch you cannot scratch huh. The hardest part is trying out all the variables to deduce what is really wrong. I agree with the person who said it is probably something simple. Check those first and work down a list. Moving the speaker should be the hardest and last. Really asking a lot of room acoustics there IMO. The other day I could not get my pool speakers to play through the cd player. Turns out I hooked up the wrong IC's. Not that yours is that simple, but tracing down wire leads and checking conncections is usually one of the issues. Isolate the speakers one at a time and check them out. MIght even try Deoxit if the terminals look bad or rusty. Got my JBL100s to play highs just by spraying deoxit into the brightness controls. Klipsch used some marginal peaker wire in my opinion. I replaced the woofer ones myself on my Khorns. Anyway, good luck and keep at it. If it bothers you than you will not enjoy them until it is right to you so do not give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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