Def Leper Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Wow, that wood-topped turntable was rather dashing and pretty. The metal one looks like a Teutonic torture fantasy. I'd be embarrassed to even have it seen in my trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 If this thread were a person I'd call him a douchebag. Thankfully, it's not. This is so typical of grouchy ex-appliance salesmen. Talk about dishwashers and they have no problems, bring up a cartridge and stylus and wow. Gee, and I thought you didn't pay attention... But really, how many grouchy ex-appliance salesmen (I actually ran the place, but never mind the details) do you know? It's all the narrow minded, knee-jerk reactions to the topic that annoy me, not the topic itself. Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 How do we define worth here? To whom? As Christos (an ocasional poster on this forum and President of the Audiophile Club of Athens) has this very cartridge (and I heard it on Saturday night) he is the only one that can answer the question (but I do not know what he actually paid for it - I would be surprised if it was full retail). As it is this is a cartridge that is supposed to be the very best of the very best (whether you agree or not is purely personal opinion). If the aim of the system owner is to have the best possible system out there - regardless of cost - and this cartridge is the one that does it for them - then why not? It is like asking if a Maclaren F1 is worth the money when for 10% of the cost you can get a Ferrari with 95% of the performance. At a certain level even the most incremental improvement is worth it for someone - in any area (cars, boats, stereos, home cinema, cameras....). Well....how did it sound? Like my Denon 103.[] - its only 100 times more expensive!! Seriously - very difficult to describe the sound - or ascribe the components of the sound of the entire system to its different parts - cartridge or otherwise. It is a VERY serious analogue setup with some pretty serious kit surrounding it. In some ways it is the single most astonishing sound I have ever heard. How much of that is down to the cartridge? - search me. I am not sure I would rate it over the ZYX Airy 3 - which is about an eighth of the cost. I think it probably is a step above the Shelter 901 that I used to own but the 90X....dont know. I wouldn't choose it because I think there are better ways to spend the money - but if it does it for the owner - all power to them. Of course its old hat now - now there is the new Goldfinger cartridge from Clearaudio - a snip at $12,000.[:S] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Will it fit in my $99.00 linear tracking Kenwood? Maybe I could hot glue it onto the tone arm. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 How do we define worth here? To whom? As Christos (an ocasional poster on this forum and President of the Audiophile Club of Athens) has this very cartridge (and I heard it on Saturday night) he is the only one that can answer the question (but I do not know what he actually paid for it - I would be surprised if it was full retail). As it is this is a cartridge that is supposed to be the very best of the very best (whether you agree or not is purely personal opinion). If the aim of the system owner is to have the best possible system out there - regardless of cost - and this cartridge is the one that does it for them - then why not? It is like asking if a Maclaren F1 is worth the money when for 10% of the cost you can get a Ferrari with 95% of the performance. At a certain level even the most incremental improvement is worth it for someone - in any area (cars, boats, stereos, home cinema, cameras....). Max, I agree. The world would be a sad place if there were not those who pursued the very best of whatever one could think of. Auto manufacturers recognize this, and offer a full range of products from econoboxes to exclusive luxury vehicles. Is audio equipment any different? The sour grapes on this forum is unfortunate. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Sour grapes -- not at all. I love expensive things if the expense translates into tangible gains in performance. I think these tables and cartridges are a cruel joke, and I see them in the same light as $5000 speaker "cables" -- it's sad really. There is simply a point at which one reaches diminishing returns, and then zero returns! I'm quite sure the very "best" that can be achieved with vinyl comes in far below $80,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmikid Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 I don't think it's worth the money! I used it in my Technics and in the middle of the first disc, when I was scratching a bit to run it in... the needle broke of!? [:^)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 If you installed it in one of these things, you'd have a ratio of a little bit less than 8:1 turntable to cartridge. About the same as installing an M91ED in a 1229, for those of you that go back that far. Works for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Sour grapes -- not at all. I love expensive things if the expense translates into tangible gains in performance. I think these tables and cartridges are a cruel joke, and I see them in the same light as $5000 speaker "cables" -- it's sad really. There is simply a point at which one reaches diminishing returns, and then zero returns! I'm quite sure the very "best" that can be achieved with vinyl comes in far below $80,000. Ditto that...Where's the engineering showing that the fancy exotic wood they're using is a better performer? How bout all the other parts? How bout I build some speaker wire out of rare wood? Wood makes everything better...in fact, I guarantee them to be 100% distortion free [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted January 19, 2006 Author Share Posted January 19, 2006 How do we define worth here? To whom? As Christos (an ocasional poster on this forum and President of the Audiophile Club of Athens) has this very cartridge (and I heard it on Saturday night) he is the only one that can answer the question (but I do not know what he actually paid for it - I would be surprised if it was full retail). As it is this is a cartridge that is supposed to be the very best of the very best (whether you agree or not is purely personal opinion). If the aim of the system owner is to have the best possible system out there - regardless of cost - and this cartridge is the one that does it for them - then why not? It is like asking if a Maclaren F1 is worth the money when for 10% of the cost you can get a Ferrari with 95% of the performance. At a certain level even the most incremental improvement is worth it for someone - in any area (cars, boats, stereos, home cinema, cameras....). Max, I agree. The world would be a sad place if there were not those who pursued the very best of whatever one could think of. Auto manufacturers recognize this, and offer a full range of products from econoboxes to exclusive luxury vehicles. Is audio equipment any different? The sour grapes on this forum is unfortunate. Klipsch out. I agree no sour grapes. I don't think any one is preaching consumer socialism by asking what something is worth. Clearaudio should continue to produce all thier products based on the market not this thread, and I am sure they will so don't fret. I am not saying that everone should drive a Ford Aspire and not a Rolls Royce Phantom. Just asking whether its worth it to them. Max- Thanks for the mini review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Sour grapes -- not at all. I love expensive things if the expense translates into tangible gains in performance. I think these tables and cartridges are a cruel joke, and I see them in the same light as $5000 speaker "cables" -- it's sad really. There is simply a point at which one reaches diminishing returns, and then zero returns! I'm quite sure the very "best" that can be achieved with vinyl comes in far below $80,000. Ditto that...Where's the engineering showing that the fancy exotic wood they're using is a better performer? How bout all the other parts? How bout I build some speaker wire out of rare wood? Wood makes everything better...in fact, I guarantee them to be 100% distortion free [] Obviously, You ...Who .. are not aware of the special qualities of Audiophool ...Wood ....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 Obviously, You ...Who .. are not aware of the special qualities of Audiophool ...Wood ....[] Oops, I meant to say that it increases the distortion giving it a nice warm sound. And to bring it to the next level all you need is a good match... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 For 13 grand, I can buy a damn house! You people have too much money to waste. Why don't you give me some green so I can buy a damn pair of Khorns. After all, they are pocket changes to you, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 19, 2006 Share Posted January 19, 2006 The question wasn't, "should people really be buying these things", or "If you had money falling out of your arse wouldn't this be cool to own" -- the question was "is this thing really worth $13,000". To me, "worth" carries with it the idea of value, and in most hobbies value is tied not just to asthetics but also the performance parameters of the item which is in turn tied to the R&D, materials, and manufacture. I look and read about that cartridge and I just don't "see" $13,000. The same applies to some of those tables, which no matter how high you stack, shape, or spray them -- they're still just 'record players'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 The question wasn't, "should people really be buying these things", or "If you had money falling out of your arse wouldn't this be cool to own" -- the question was "is this thing really worth $13,000". To me, "worth" carries with it the idea of value, and in most hobbies value is tied not just to asthetics but also the performance parameters of the item which is in turn tied to the R&D, materials, and manufacture. I look at that cartridge and read about -- and I just don't "see" $13,000. The same applies to some of those tables, which no matter how high you stack, shape, or spray them -- they're stll just freaking record players. A better definition of worth is "what will the market pay for this item?" Assuming that this cartridge has sold more than the one unit (that I know of) then it is worth its price to a sufficient number of people for Clearaudio to continue manufacturing. The answer is therefore - yes, it is worth $13,000 for enough people to make manufacturing worthwhile. Any establishment of worth that contains "to me" is not relevent. Similarly there are a couple of really high end turntables in this thread. I cannot comment on these as I have never heard them play - but I have heard a VYGR turntable (with a Denon 301 interestingly enough - a very low output cartridge). The VYGER is multiple times the price of my TT - and I heard a difference. Enough to justifiy the price difference? Kinda up to the purchaser and NO-ONE else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Sour grapes -- not at all. I love expensive things if the expense translates into tangible gains in performance. I think these tables and cartridges are a cruel joke, and I see them in the same light as $5000 speaker "cables" -- it's sad really. There is simply a point at which one reaches diminishing returns, and then zero returns! I'm quite sure the very "best" that can be achieved with vinyl comes in far below $80,000. Ditto that...Where's the engineering showing that the fancy exotic wood they're using is a better performer? How bout all the other parts? How bout I build some speaker wire out of rare wood? Wood makes everything better...in fact, I guarantee them to be 100% distortion free [] Yer gonna throw in the distortion for free???? Could ya make mine in walnut stained maple?[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsweb Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 I won't beat a dead horse here, just say that "worth" is a relative term. This is a very niche item and not intended for I'd say 99% of the people on this forum. The same amount of people that would not or could not spend $100K for a turntable and then put a $13K cartridge on it. I'm most likely in a very small segment that has more money in a table than many have in an entire system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted January 20, 2006 Author Share Posted January 20, 2006 I won't beat a dead horse here, just say that "worth" is a relative term. This is a very niche item and not intended for I'd say 99% of the people on this forum. The same amount of people that would not or could not spend $100K for a turntable and then put a $13K cartridge on it. I'm most likely in a very small segment that has more money in a table than many have in an entire system. I am of the small % in this forum who have substantially more money invested in non-retirement and/or retirement accounts then they have invested in thier whole system. Of course with this market [*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardsweb Posted January 20, 2006 Share Posted January 20, 2006 Anyone with more money in their system than in their retirement expects to die young and leave nothing. Kind of like going to Vegas, if you can't loose it, don't gamble it. Anyway back on topic, be it cartridges, speakers or source, every piece it's all part of a system. The best piece in your system will always reveal the next weakest link. In this case, if everything else down stream isn't of the same caliber, then the you wouldn't notice any difference with this cartridge. Now inthe same vein, if you have a seriously good table it can only be as good as the cartridge you use. I've said before if audio nirvana is equal to 100%, you can spend half your budget and get to 80% really quick. You double that money to get to 90% and that last 10% of improvement becomes expotential. So this cart on a Pioneer table will make no difference, on a Transrotor Gravita, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 I won't beat a dead horse here, just say that "worth" is a relative term. This is a very niche item and not intended for I'd say 99% of the people on this forum. The same amount of people that would not or could not spend $100K for a turntable and then put a $13K cartridge on it. I'm most likely in a very small segment that has more money in a table than many have in an entire system. I am of the small % in this forum who have substantially more money invested in non-retirement and/or retirement accounts then they have invested in thier whole system. Of course with this market [*-)] How would you know that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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