What a difference legs make.....

[maxg]

This is a long story that I am going to point you to, as it is under discussion on the ACA forum (Tony started it there as he is the moderator).

Anyway suffice to say here - that I finally had enough of my half-height sound-stage and decided to do something about it. All I did was put the speakers on legs (about 15 inches) and everything, but everything changed.

This was the single most dramatic change my system has ever experienced - even greater than various speaker changes, amp changes, the wacko TT, all of it.

Read on here http://www.aca.gr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1116

[ironwoods]

Hey Max, without going through the rig-a-ma-role to read that thread, wound this be any different than a single pedestal/column stand? However, I'll agree that when I put my Heresy up on 20" heavy mass stands, the improvment in the mid bass to Hf's, by far out-weighed the loss in LF response, although I now employ a sub.

So I suppose you could call me a leg-man of sorts.

[LarryC]

Max, I tried to register on the ACA website to see your pics, and a message came back: "You must validate your Anti Robotic Registration" and sorry, my e-mail address has been "banned." I have no idea what they're talking about -- they did ask for some numbers including an MSN # that were, well, "Greek" to me.

So, I can't look at your pics. Sorry,

Larry

[maxg]

Larry,

You should be able to view the thread without registering - I think.

The MSN number is irrelevent - not sure about the email thing though - let me have your details and I can check it out - either pm me or email it to me.

[Mike Lindsey]

How? It's asking for a username and pwd, and I really don't want to register if I don't have to.

Mike

[D-MAN]

You simply changed the waveform propagation in your space.

Now its a wholly different soundstage, ain't it?

DM

[maxg]

Hmm......maybe you do have to be members.....ok.....I will copy and paste here then:

Tony's post:

Sometimes when you bring up a child, people have told me, you find out they do things which are totally out of there nature.

Well for the second time in a week, I found out that speakers are mini children.

The History:

Maxg has poured more time into his system, second only to our president I believe. I know this as I reside close to him and have lived the changes he has done, sometimes on a day to day basis.

For an extra ear, I go by after he has changed a cartridge or set the speakers apart, or even buy one, or no, two pairs of subs in the past.

Other times I go by to reminisce of a Christmas 2 years ago which cannot be talked about in an open forum, but alas I can reveal a few facts. Max was gone and I had his house and his stereo, and for the first time in my life, I made classical music a part of me and a female partner. Even until today I still sigh and long for those Memoirs of Tony Pothitos.

Getting back to Maxi. Wow, 5 or 6 years ago, he thought an Aiwa was the best thing he had heard, and when he bought the super woofer that went along with it, he almost peed in his pants, and with sonic tears would listen to music for hours on end. I always admired him for never hearing the faults, but hated the fact that he couldnt hear the good in other systems. Not necessarily mine, but others. The only speaker we ever agreed on was my Klipsch horn and the B&W 802 Nautilus. He hated the Quads for anything than classical music and thought they were badly built. Well what do you expect for an English speaker he said, as he left the room. I remember that so well like it was only this morning, since he is ENGLISH MADE HIMSELF!

So to make things really short, between the two of us, we have changed over six pairs of speakers, and more than a dozen amplifiers, 20 miles of wires and 80 kilos of sweat over the year,s as we fought our way to high fidelity haven. (Notice the word heaven is not used)

We even had an A.C.A meeting one fine day, a few years back and it was Maxgs and my night to show our equipment and have our fun at the same time. Back then I cant remember what he had, a pair of Sansuis from the 70s given to him from his brother in law, or a pair of Klipsch Heresys which still are a decent set up, somewhere else in Athens. The outcome of the evening was that of disconcertment for Maxg, at least behind his back, because he thought he had the best system in the world, while just because he didnt spend 20 grand on his system, people never took the time to listen to his setup. Which was not that great, but by far the best for the money out of any of our systems at A.C.A

We, here at A.C.A have a very bad thing going for us. We believe that what is expensive is necessarily good, and this is not the case as most of us have realised as the years have gone by.

I will give you an example of such a case now.

One day Maxi tried on a TT on his system with wires coming out of his pocket and a switchblade between his teeth, mind you the Sony or Philips TT was old school, where scratching had a different meaning to what it has today. The turntable was a piece of crap, and I ended up throwing a fit, not to mention the album out the window from my surprise at the analogue sound being so much qualitatively above our CD players!

That was it, we went analogue. We went out and bought the same turntable the exact same day from Orpheus, something called a Project 4. Which to us, then, outplayed any CD player even though it cost us only 500 Euro each per table with arm and phono and cartridge included. The only thing that was better was the DP 75 Accuphase I had, but was returned because it played to soft and Maxi hated it when it played Bon Jovi!

I still remember the lightning strike which I wished for that night but that never came to hit Maxi for his words. This is mush! he said. I was playing with Carry, Accuphase and a pair of Klipsch Horn and all he could say was MUSH! Damn him for making me sell that DP 75. If I only knew then what I know now. Nothing can sound good, and everything can sound good if you pair it improperly or properly accordingly.

So coming, or is it going, to last night.

Years and records have passed. Cartridges have come and gone. The woman in my life accordingly still remember Max as the guy with big ears with the weird stereo system Although I do have to say that one time she even said she loved the sound in classical, and I did agree with her. It was truly the most musical and evolving classical I have heard in my life. I have heard better, but nothing so involving and so so sweet.

So after I build a pair of speakers, he makes them better, and then even better again by changing woofers and the cabinets. He then spends a Toyota on a TT table which is worth every penny and an arm that cost an arm and a leg, and for a year now has been fixating on making it work. And alas, he has. Never thought he would do it, but just when you think you know Maxg, you realise you were right. He will never give up, no matter the cost in time or energy, while others would have been put to there graves, Maxg will just keep on going on until he gets it right.

I wonder if he does this in bed with his ladies? Shit, thats it, now I realise why they say I have to try his cooking ONE more time!

Last night:

At around nine or so, while the water was turning into small ice escapades on my windshield, along with bird dun left from a very large dumb wing owner, I turned up to have a listen to what he considered the biggest movement of history since his daughter was born, and he found out he was a man after all!

I had heard this many a quantifiable times before, but this time it was unfortunately true. I say unfortunate because what I witnessed last night had nothing to do with anything I had heard before when it comes to changes in a system. Without really changing the system!

All he had done was lifted the speakers 40 cm off the ground. Thats it. No machines behind the door. No wiring changes, nothing. And the transformation of his system was so tremendous, only physics can describe it. Certainly not me!

When speakers sit on a floor, the notes hit the floor, the furniture, and even us sitting down. It gets the dogs, the cats and in many cases even the dirt hidden in the cracks between the tiles. And yes it makes the music come out differently. The amount of mass which dissipates from open air, while saturation of the sound pressure levels adjoin, creates what we psychologists call HAVOC!

But in the most insane manner, the junk speakers which I had originally built, were now playing as hi end (dare I use the word) near field monitor speakers.

The soundstage was so big I had to turn my head as the musical performance was altering from right to left, and when toed in, the depth was that only comparable to my inner gut.

Miles and miles of coiling, churns and in depth treasures, which can only be heard in speakers costing 10 times the amount. The musicality was gone compared to what it was and the soft and gentle caress of the violin was more agitated, but under no doubt was it not a violin of taste. Like when you have a wine where you can just tell the barrel is aged and procured just right.
The system was no more laid back, but it felt you were getting LAID instead. It was nauseating to have so much information hit your ears and to have to comprehend it so fast. I dont know how Maxg likes it so much, but if he can live with it, I am more than happy to know he is going to be a schizophrenic within the decade if he continues to listen to a system that sounds like the perfect headphones but with a soundstage that is so big that makes reality even look better! (God that was a long sentence) This and the fact that the airy feeling of some of the mids/highs were lost due to space warp and internal bleeding of my medulla and inner ear.

That was the harshest way I could have described the negative points of the speakers!

But there is a reason why. There is always another side to any coin.

Being laid is great! Having notes inflate your vaginal airways is tantalising, and most people who are schizophrenic love it. Oh and about the airy feeling. Well, just imagine flying while listening to Mozart and then come back to me to tell me about what classical music was supposed to be represented like.

Do you get it? Well if not, drop by Maxgs home, where his lovely daughter and wife will place you in the note chair and tie yourself down for a trip to space. Because if that was not quantum physics squeezing my cahonas, then nothing is!

In conlusion:

Max, keep on going dude, your going to write history on this earth that God might have created for us high fidelity nuts! But I am sure one day, I will be telling someones grandchildren that I knew the man from space born in England!

Tony Pothitos
Moderator of [ACA.GR] Forums

[maxg]

My reply:

Boy that man can wax lyrical when he is of a mind to. I didn't think he was going to write about this - as it is still very much a work in progress, but he has and I am not disenchanted with that.

What I am not sure came out in the story, however, is quite how dramatically the sound has changed - merely through raising the speakers 40 cm. As Tony says it sounds like a completely different system which was not what either of us was expecting.

Just to add a little background I have, in fact, never owned a full height speaker. These current home built items are the nearest thing - at about 65 cm. If I am going to be honest when I constructed the boxes I didn't think clearly (actually I simply did not know) and constructed them so have large internal volumes for a small height. If I ever get the time I will build another set of enclosures that are taller and slimmer.

Anyway - having lived with a half height sound stage for years I decided that adding some legs to the speakers would raise said soundstage and solve the problem. That is, in fact, the only change I was expecting - along with a necessary adjustment to the sub settings to cater for the expected reduced bass output from the now raised mains.

This is not what has happened - or rather it has happened but with a number of curious side affects. Having raised the speakers I now find the following:

1. Soundstage and depth:

I am unable to run the speakers in their original positions as the soundstage has gone completely insane. Originally they were about 60 cm from the wall and toed in. With this setup it makes all records sound like they are recorded in Q-sound. (For those that do not know about Q-sound - go and find a copy of Roger Waters Amused to Death and you will see).

In the meantime let me explain thus: With the speakers in the original position the soundstage does not just extend both behind and in front of the speakers it continues past the listening position. Instruments therefore, appear to be playing both in front and behind you and this is most disconcerting when you are not expecting it.

Whils this strange depth effect is taking place the entire soundstage wraps around - so that sometimes instuments can appear to be coming from your direct left or direct right - as if you are listening to a performance from between the last violinist and the woodwind section.

As a result of all of this I moved the speakers back to the rear wall - about 10 cm from it to be precise and totally flat (no toe in). This massively normalized the sound stage depth but created astounding width. As Tony said - you find yourself turning your head to listen to different parts of the sonic illusion in front of you - very much row one centre at a full performance of Berlioz Requiem with its extended orchestra - fine if you happen to be listening to that piece - a little disconcerting listening to a 4 man band.

The good thing about the setup as it is now is the sweet spot. It used to fit only me - now I could put a full soccer team with substitutes, manager and physio into it.

Anyway that is where I left it when Tony came - I had not even re-dialed in the sub. The other effects - the incredible detail and the lessening of the "musical" aspect are something that I am enjoying right now in this honeymoon period. Whether that enjoyment will remain for long (once the thrill of the new has worn off) only time will tell.

Finally it was only whilst Tony was there that we tried toeing in the speakers in their new positions. I have not listened to the speakers toed in as yet (that will be tonight - family allowing). According to Tony it brings more depth and reduces the 747 wingspan expanse of the soundstage.

We will see - and doubtless both report on progress.

I could always try a shorter leg.....

[dubai2000]

Excellent read, Max - as usual I might add[]. Your experience reminds me of the first day I listened to music in my current room (Khorn to Khorn distance about 3.5m) - Liszt first piano concerto. At last there was space for the solo instrument and the orchestra......the downside (there is one as usual [] ): you get used to it very quickly [:'(].

But for now enjoy your 'new' rig.

Wolfram

[D-MAN]

Hey, Max, the same (or related) thing happens to the soundstage when or if you change your wiring! I'm telling ya - it never ends!

DM

[J M O N]

Max: are you referring to post offering Walnut Khorns for sale in L.A. for $3k???

[jbsl]

I understand what you mean Max!

I sit 10 feet back from my La Scalas and felt they were a little bright. So I made 6 1/2 inch risers for them and it really helped with the bass and helped tame the brightness. The highs, midrange, and bass seem to blend better now.

[jacksonbart]

(admin edit)

[Chris Robinson]

Dang, great read. Thanks to you both.

Now I'm going to have to build a set of risers for my Cornwalls.

And my Heresies.

And my Klipschorns!

And my KG4's.

Where was that circular saw again????

[thebes]

Max, sounds like you have a really good friend in Tony, and he's quite funny too!

I have to admit that I was quite suprised to hear that you had never

before considered raising the speakers up off the floor. Having

followed your adventures with the high-end stuff for quite some time

now, I would have thought that somewhere along the way someboby would

have mentioned this.

The funny thing is that while all thinking individuals consider

themselves logical, we are anything but. Got to love those Eureka!

moments, though. Sure somebody, somewhere, has more than likely

already thought of it, but it's really special when we come up with it

ourselves.

I don't know, though. First Jengas, now cheap speaker stands. I

always thought of you as an uptown sort of guy, now you're down here

hanging out with us peasants. []

A quantum leap in sonics is nothing to sneeze at. Glad you like it.

[codhead]

Who's your daddy?

[dtel]

So how high is the top of the speaker now ?

[maxg]

Oh my god - inspired by Bose - NOT!!!

As I probably said I had been planning to do this for ages but simply never got around to it. The thing is that whilst I was expecting change - this is just a huge difference and a complete surprise.

I have now toed the speakers in as per Tony's recommendation and indeed do think it is better.

For reference the distance to the top of the speaker is 107 cm. That is a jot over 42 inches.

Thebes,

Welcome to the enigma. I enjoy buying expensive stuff when I can - but enjoy it far more getting inexpensive stuff to perform its socks off. Tony has pointed out the false economy here many times - I save cash but invest hours, days and weeks in tweaking it to get the sound expensive would have gotten me in a single step.

Even if I charged myself out at $10 per hour this is one expensive system when you look at it like that.

On the other hand I think I am not alone in this approach. How much does your system REALLY cost if you think about it?