Klipschorn Veneer Very Dry - Worried Now

[psg]

Seems my post didnèt work out (again).

What I meant to say was that I use the regular lemon oil Old English (bottom picture) as was suggested to me on this forum last spring. Works fine for me. But since the bottle is just about empty, I'll try the bottom on the top next!

[MarkBK]

OK - The Watco is more permanent. Like BLO. Right? Takes great care to apply, etc? I could buy a can and test a spot, but I don't see how clear would add red tones. These are very poop brown. Much like dated '70's cheap meditteranean furniture.

Mark - are you referring to the Watco Danish Oil? Or the Watco Rejuvenating Oil?

Either one is great - but try the rejuvenating. You do have walnut - right? IF yes, go to Owl Hardwood on St Charles Rd and get a smwll piece of walnut and the oil including the cherry - then try the cherry mix on the sample wood BEFORE you do the Khorns - cheap way to test coloring.

[psg]

OK - The Watco is more permanent. Like BLO. Right? Takes great care to apply, etc? I could buy a can and test a spot, but I don't see how clear would add red tones. These are very poop brown. Much like dated '70's cheap meditteranean furniture.

Mark - are you referring to the Watco Danish Oil? Or the Watco Rejuvenating Oil?

Either one is great - but try the rejuvenating. You do have walnut - right? IF yes, go to Owl Hardwood on St Charles Rd and get a smwll piece of walnut and the oil including the cherry - then try the cherry mix on the sample wood BEFORE you do the Khorns - cheap way to test coloring.

Or test on the inside of the top bin (where the crossover is).

[meagain]

Seems the Watco stuff is a bit hard to find. I couldn't believe my Home Depot didn't have it. Thanks for the heads up on Owl Mark!

[Bill H.]

Lisa,

Here you go......locations to buy Watco Products near you!

http://www.woodcraft.com/stores/Default.aspx?locate=state&state=IL

[PrestonTom]

Everyone,

I am also a big believer in the Watco products.

However, we are mixing two different issues here.

If you are refinishing the cabinets, then Watco or BLO with stain might be appropriate. But this requires prepping the surface. At least some very light sanding (please go easy with the sanding & do not round the corners).

If you are giving an annual treatment to the cabinets (and not re-finishing them), thinned BLO or some other Watco products (rejuvinator) would be fine. But I would be leery of adding stain to such a mixture.

It has already been said before; however, if these are Lacquer cabinets then it is a different set of rules. If they are "Raw" cabinets then this might be the first coat (of whatever) they are getting. If so, please be careful. Have they been previously been oiled (by the previous owner)? Does the surface need to be prepped? Has someone used furniture polish that contains silicone. These present other issues and a "universal" answer is not appropriate.

Good luck,

-Tom

[meagain]

I'll definitely be using Watco not BLO when I do this project....

While I'm at it... How does one test for a Lacquer finish? Conversely, if one wanted to remove the oil finish - what would be used? My LaScalas have a sheen over the raw birch and I want to warm them up a bit. Just a tad, to warm up the whiteness of them. If you ask me, I fear I'm looking at Polyurethane. But IDK.

[Bill H.]

Removing a Lacquer finish.........

http://www.ugl.com/h2removmainframe.html

[dtel]

I would try BLO,Just last week i finished a small box/chest made from 3 different woods, oak, pecan and mahogany . I had always wanted to try Blo but never did so i did on this little box and it came out very nice, very natural, a really nice finish and really lets the grain of the wood show without alot of gloss. Although JMON'S finish looks very nice.

[WMcD]

Have we decided that they are originally oiled? Care for lacquer is something different.

I've pointed out most of the following before, many times.

Old English "Lemon Oil" is just mineral oil plus some lemon perfume. That is to say it is between very light motor oil or very heavy kerosene. People use it in their hair or, in pure form as a laxative. Really.

Check the ingredient list for Old English or anything else. I think you'll find mineral oil. I.e. petroleum oil plus lemon perfume. There is no oil from a lemon to speak of. Perhaps the lemon covers the petroleum smell.

It is not bad for wood because it does not have any water. It can be used to clean. I even scrub with a Scotchbrite pad and that will take out minor stains.. There is a a residue which increases contrast. So the wood looks great for a while. In a month or so it evaporates. It sould not create a problem with later "oil" type treatments.

Mineral oil does not solidfy. An exception may be when engine oil is heated a lot. We're not there.

"Oil" covers a lot of territory. In many cases refers to a vegitable oil like linseed or tung oil. Per the above, it can also refer to just petroleum oil. In may cases a wipe on finish of any origin is called an "oil". Sometimes they have sophisticated chemical systems based on polyeurethane which is like the old varnish in effect.

Danish Oil is mostly BLO, some versions add pigments. The problem with BLO is that if it is left on a rag, and the air can't get to it, it heats up and starts a fire. You see such warnings in old days about "oily rags". You'll find this warning on Danish Oil. Check the can. I think you'll find that anything with BLO has this warning. BLO will build a finish. It does form a solid plastic.

I have not done it recently but a check for Material Safety Data Sheets will show the components of various materials beyond what it on the can.

I think that Casey Gun Oil is just a wipe on varnish. No BLO.

Let me step back a minute here to get the big picture.

Even from pre-history, we want something which will not hurt the wood, as water does, by causing swelling as the wood fibers expands. Indeed when it was alive the wood needed water to live and part of its purpose was to transport water up the plant.

Pure plant oils or petroleum is good for that. Olive oil, corn oil, etc. fall in the same boat. Our salad bowls show that. Contrast is increased and they do protect the now dead wood from water damage. But they evaporate, eventually.

A different goal from pre-history is to find something which goes on as a liquid, sticks to the cells, and then turns solid and somewhat clear. That is a pretty tall order in the very old days. (Bee's wax was one of the first solutions, but not quite there.)

If "whatever" forms enough solids, we build a finish. Boiling or other processing of vegitable oils converts them to such a plastic after exposure to air so this was the first type of plastic in thin films. But they don't build up a thick finish in one coat.

More sophisticated pre-modern products, like brush-on varnish, do make it possible to put down a thick film of honey- like consistency. But this is prone to brush strokes, sags, and drips.

The solution is to go back to thinned out varnish as a wipe on finish. This puts down a thin coat, just as the old linseed or tung did..

Sorry that got long.

Gil

Edit and P.S. Most people here have heard what I have to say on these subjects. Enough said. I'm going to not post on them again, ever. Smile.

[psg]

Thanks for that great and informative post Gil!

[pauln]

I'm no expert on wood or finishes; but I put Formby's Liquid Gold on my oiled walnut Heresys for 20 years - they looked better each year with no buildup. Tried tung oil once - made a crusty layer that took a while to remove. Then for 5 years used BLO (gun stock oil) which gave a nice warm finish with less shine and deeper wood grain - just right.

Pauln

[J M O N]

JMON - The top of that khorn is beautiful. Nice shine. Is it just the Watco Rejuv. oil creating that sheen? Or what's under the oil? I like the color as depicted in that pic also. Was thinking of trying a tad bit of watco cherry to warm them up. Mix natural with cherry. But not sure if I can take on such a project just yet. Plus it would be nice to open the windows during this.

I think today I'll clean them with mineral spirits & get a good quality lemon oil for them. Then strip it all out in spring and do it right with Watco. Hopefully by then the search engine will be up and I can see pictures of various finishing jobs. Hopefully.

meagain: Watco Rejuvinating oil is all that was used. Use this on your oiled walnut and they will look just like mine. You may need to give it a few coats if they are really dried out, but you will notice a difference with just one coat.

The Rejuvinating oil is for periodic maintenance. I believe the other Watco products with stain are for applying an oil finish for the very first time. You would only do this once. Your speakers already have an oil finish, you just need to moisturize them periodically.

Both Home Depot and Lowe's carry the rejuvinating oil. I found it next to the Minwax products.

[J M O N]

P.S. As Gil mentioned above, if you do use the Watco Rejuvinating oil (WRO), or BLO, make sure you read and head the safety warnings. Rags soaked in either can spontaneously ignite (WRO contains BLO). Keep the rags stored in metal containers. I use a tin from a Christmas fruit cake -- who said fruit cakes make bad gifts???

The WRO is more of a turnkey product. It's more expensive than BLO, but you don't have to do anything with it, just apply to the wood (follow directions of course). Still, it's only about $5 or $6. By the way, those photos above were taken a couple months after the WRO application.

[sunnysal]

slight hijack/off topic...but what should use then on my birch raw klipschorns? thanks, tony

[WMcD]

Attached in the MSDS for Watco Danish Oil.

Manufacturers are required to publish MSDS and they are a good source of "secret" information. OTOH, they don't give much info on "safe" ingredients. Here for example, the ingredient of raw linseed oil is down near the end.

I learned a lot looking for this it is now a Rustoleum product. I'm a bit surprized there is not anything on the spontaneous comubstion issue on the sheet.

You can find a lot of info on Watco doing a Google and I'll let you do that.

When I used Watco I used an alternative means of disposing of the wiping cloth which I read in a woodworking magazine. It is to set up a little clothsline outdoors. Just spread out the cloth to dry, exposed to air. It is the drying without air that causes the heat. That is the danger. You wind up with a little stiff board of cloth. There is no reason to try to save 100 square inches of cloth material.

The fire issue still bothered me.

Also I was not that impressed by the slow build of the finish. In my view, there is a lot of press about the old classic finishes like Watco, BLO and turpentine, beeswax and turpentine, etc. Modern chemistry is in fact better. "But in some parts of the hills, the old ways die hard."

I went to the Formby and Minwax wipe on products. They work very well. I applied with a paper towel. Not withstanding worries to the contrary, I found no issue of lint or break up of the paper contaminating the finish with nubbies. There was some dust which I do not attribute to the paper. A light scrub between coats with Scotchbrite did the job.

The following is something I'll not bother people with again. With wipe ons, you can build an excellent finish in five coats. It takes 20 minutes a night over a week. On Monday night, put on a coat which you think is not enough (no drips or sags). Let dry overnight. Next night hit it with Scotchbite, dust off. Put on another thin coat which you think is not enough. By Friday you have something you can't accomplish in 5 hours on a single Saturday.

Gil

DANSHOILSB.pdf

[Klipschguy]

If you want a built up finish, do not use BLO products. A properly done BLO type finish is not built up finish like varnish or tung oil. When you touch a fine BLO finish you feel like you are touching the wood, not a plastic layer over the wood.

The original Klipsch oil finish is not built up - you are feeling the wood. If a built-up finish is desired, Gil is certainly right: BLO is not your Huckleberry.

The technique I have been describing will yield an original looking, non-built-up smooth satin finish with the veneer at your finger tips. Built-up finishes are very nice, but they are different. Just preferences.

Gil, as always, thank you for your input - you are truly an asset to the forum (I like the articles especially).

Andy

[meagain]

The technique I have been describing will yield an original looking, non-built-up smooth satin finish with the veneer at your finger tips.

Andy

That's what I'm desireing. A tad bit of sheen like a satin finish. I don't want lamps echo'd in the finish. Just a highlight/glow.

Question - would an original klipschorn feel totally glass smooth? Or can some grain be felt. I feel grain on mine.

[Klipschguy]

It definitely will leave visible and palpable grain - just smooth. It just won't be fingernail catching crap. Same for a new Khorn. The finish will not be like a grain filled lacquered mahogany dining room table.

[hach13]

Meagain,

I've been in the paint business for the last 20 years and refinished many antiques.

You've received all kinds of advice here much of which is very good.

If you see any evidence that any small scratches or dents appear somewhat clouded there is a good chance they have a lacquer finish. From your description it sounds like they are more likely oiled.

I recently purchased a pair of Klipsch Forte II's in oiled oak.

The finish was dried out and little depth in the color.

I initially only wanted to clean the wood and add some lustre as they are in the house and it's winter.

I used Pledge with orange oil. The orange oil is already in the pledge as you buy it and will say so in the bottle. Mineral spirits will not remove the stain and it will have a fiarly strong dor that will stay in the wood for awhile. It will not any better in removing dirt etc.

The orange oil will cut through and remove any light grease, dirt or grime and at the same time add some lustre to the wood. Just apply enough to wet the wood and rub thoroughly with a cotton cloth.

If you see the cloth becoming fairly dirty repeat the process with a clean cloth. Then follow by rubbing with a dry clean cloth to remove any excess. You may be surprised with how good they look. This will also be appropriate if they are lacquer.

After doing this and you decide you still feel the color is too dark you will not be able to lighten it or dramatically shift the color by staining.

You would need to attempt to remove the existing finish and stain which is not easy to do on thin veneer.

If you decide you want to add more lustre and depth I would suggest using the Watco products or Tung Oil. With either of these you would want to lightly sand first to smooth the wood.

Then apply a coat and let it dry till it just becomes slightly tacky and follow by wiping off the excess.

2 coats minimum - the more coats the higher the lustre. I personally like this over lacquer as lacquer forms a hard finish that can be scratched and possibly delaminate. The oil finish will never peel and can easily be repaired if scratched.

Good luck on the project

Randy