thebes Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Picked up a sweet little pair of Heresy's this weekend. Very transparent and detailed little rascals, but don't like having them on the floor (my belly button likes it but my ears are complaining). I'll be running up a set of risers soon but after a little research on our revitalized Search function, I decided to lift them up to ear level. Bass, of course, completly disappeared. Had a 10" Marantz sub lying around so I wired it in, and while not fully dialed in yet much better. However.... To get to the point (slowly): I've built up a sweet little downstairs system of a pre and two mono-blocks, sure they are push-pull, but one amp per speaker, a single-phase pre, in other words without heading over to SET I'm trying to run as clean a system as I can. But now I've thrown a sub into it. It's wired between the amp and the mains, it's got adjustments for Level (bottom-end) and Frequency (mids) and a phase reverse switch. Does doing this make any sense at all? I mean now I have the sub crossover, a couple of circuit boards, caps, two seperate pots, more wires etc. in the sub theoretically coloring my sound. I supose if you have an amp with a dedicated sub-channel this might be OK, but given what I want to use with Heresy's does this make any sense. Even more important why would somebody with a 2 channel, not an HT setup, even want all this extra stuff in their delivery chain? I'm so confused. But then again that's my normal state of mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Subs and Heresys sitting in a tree........ Like birds and bees, they go together. It's your ears that you are pleasuring Thebes old chap, make kittens. Enough cliches?[] Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Rick what are you doing up a tree? It's not even hunting season. I don't find these little puppies bass-shy when they are on the floor. But I'm not a bass nut like so many are. After all what's the two most things we value in Klipsch speakers: Mids and Highs Or we wouldn't own them. You can get Thumpers almost anywhere Sony, Bose, Techncis, need I go on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 WABBITT!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Marty, My risers are 1" from the outer edge of the speaker all the way around and begin at 1" high in the rear to 2 1/4" in front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 There is only one question here: Does it sound good? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I use the standard Klipsch risers with my Heresys, Marty, and they sound fine without a sub with all sorts of music (I've got a carpeted cement slab floor). I tried them on low stands and all the bass went missing in action. When adding a sub, no matter which way you do it, I don't think a little added distortion or electronic circuitry is going to be all that audible. If it was in the mid range that would be different. I guess the signal containing the mids and highs would be filtered out passively anyway, so there is probably very little interference with this signal. Whatever sounds good to your ears would be the correct method of hooking everything up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Does doing this make any sense at all? I mean now I have the sub crossover, a couple of circuit boards, caps, two seperate pots, more wires etc. is the sub theoretically coloring my sound. I'm so confused. But then again that's my normal state of mind. Is listening to a stereo with the last 3 or 4 bottom octaves a bass missing not "coloring" the sound? I've said it before and I'll say it again... I am a very firm believer in using a subwoofer at all times, no matter what the speaker is. Bass content in music is every bit as important and the rest of the music. You cannot have one without the other and fully enjoy it. I can't at least. In saying that, if you set the phase and gain properly on the sub, you should get it to blend in seamlessly and not be noticable. It should sound like the natural extension of the Hersey's and the music without drawing attention to itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Do you have to run the mains from the outputs on the sub? How adjustable is the cut-off on the sub? I ask because it might work better to run the speakers and the sub in parallel from the main amp and to set the X-over on the sub at the point the Heresy's roll off - which in the air like that could be as high as 80 Hz. Just as a further question - is the sub ported? I have found that with sealed Heresies the best match is a sealed sub unit. With ported units they generally have trouble keeping up with the speed of the Heresy Bass. Bascially just try it in as many configurations as you have options and see which one you prefer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def Leper Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 I'm using my Heresy's in my home theater system as mains. They are on stands that are actually mission-style side tables that I got at Target ($100/pair on sale this week) which matches my decor. The tables bring the horns up to the midline on my projection TV, give me one small drawer each for storing remote controls, and a shelf below for displaying knick-knacks. Although I have a dedicated subwoofer hookup in my 7.1 system, I've found that it isn't very active with non-dolby sound sources, and moved the single-channel sub connection over to a 2-channel feed from the front channel preout connections. This works with every source (including stereo music) and gives much easier to control bass levels. I suspect this is because my amp only sends bass below 80hz to the sub output in the normal hookup but the sub likes a full-range signal, which allows me to tailor the crossover point with the frequency control on the sub. That's very useful with varied source material. Compared to my Cornwalls, the Heresy's never seemed to have much bass anyway, and this setup has proved to work well in my home theater system for everything including movies, TV and 2-channel music. That is not dust you see in the image. It is special audio-damping silicate powder that I get from a guy in Oklahoma that helps improve bass response. At only $1,000 and ounce, it's done a lot more to improve the sound of my system than my $9,000 speaker cables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Like Max said: try it in as many configurations as you have options and see which you prefer. The sub...(for me) must be the most complicated piece with all the hookup configurations, but when you get it right.....it is marvelous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 There is only one question here: Does it sound good? Dave WHAT ARE YOU SOME KIND OF HIPPIE? Whatever turns you on Dude. Why that's the kind of reasoning that keeps us from invading Iran, blockading Switzerland (damn Knomes), mutter, mutter, grumble, grumble. I've liked most of the gear I've run through my systems in the last couple of years, but if I'd simplty settled for what sounds good to my ears my march up the ladder to better sound would have ended long ago. Hell, if I'd stopped dating Twins and spending all my money on them and stereo gear I'd be living in a Chateau in the South of France. My Conrad Johnson PV3 pre has only one Main out so I don't think I could wire it in parrallel, have no idea how that works anyway. After all I'm already living in an alternate unvierse. and, yes Max it is a ported sub. And granted, the subs not fully dialed in yet, but I feel I'm missing some of that wonderfull transparency the Heresy's offer. Also, in listening last night on one track with an instrument placed mid-left of center it's now headed all the way over to the left, so I do think something more is going on than the sub simply picking up where the Heresy's leave off. I mean, I've opened up the sub and this is a boat-load of electronics in there. Then there's the whole philosophical issue of cleaning up the chain, which I presume the engineers and experts here are basing their conclusions on some sort of science. You gotta understand guys that even though I've been here for awhile, and I've picked up some of the lingo I'm still pretty hapless when it comes to a lot of this stuff. Oh, and thanks for the measurements Gary. I am a little nervous though about having the Heresy's "firing" directly at me. I keep thinking I should duck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 One main out is not necessarily a problem on the amp for a parallel configuration. My amp only has a single set of outputs as well - so I have spades on the speaker cables and banana's on the sub cables. This configuration does not seem to cause any problem for the amp - I guess that will the sub being powered it actually draw very little current. Might be something to consider. If you are seeing a dramatic shift in sound-stage something is wrong. If the sub is the cause I would guess you have the cross-over set way above 80 Hz and off to one side. As you go below 80 Hz bass becomes ever less directional as far as the observer/listener is concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Just as a further question - is the sub ported? I have found that with sealed Heresies the best match is a sealed sub unit. With ported units they generally have trouble keeping up with the speed of the Heresy Bass. I get so sick of hearing people say this. It's another one of those all-time myths. It doesn't matter if a subwoofer is sealed or ported, if designed correctly using the proper driver, amplifier and enclosure, either subwoofer will be just as quick as the next. I have heard plenty of "slow" sealed subs and plenty of "quick" ported subs. In fact, the ported subs that I'm getting ready to build have a MAX group delay of only 11ms at 17Hz. If I were to make them sealed and perform near the same as ported, that group delay goes up to nearly 25ms at 20Hz. Which one of those designs do you think will sound "slow"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Marty, You scared me. I thought you were dumping the twins and just dating one woman. You are right about the Heresys when you raise them off the floor. On the floor I thought they had enough bass and sounded very good. I now have them sitting on night stands on each side of my bed. Weak bass, but I mainly use them to listen to the radio at night. I think you have nothing to worry about by adding a sub. As long as you have it adjusted right so it doesn't overwelm the Heresy's you should have a very good sounding system. Another thing to consider is instead of making stands that bring the tweeters to ear level, leave them on the floor and tilt them up. I played with tennis balls,magizines,etc until I had the right tilt. Sounded good to me. My way of thinking was that the speakers were still coupled to the floor, close to the wall and corners which helped with the bass. Good luck and thanks for the Ella Sings the Blues headsup. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Just as a further question - is the sub ported? I have found that with sealed Heresies the best match is a sealed sub unit. With ported units they generally have trouble keeping up with the speed of the Heresy Bass. I get so sick of hearing people say this. It's another one of those all-time myths. It doesn't matter if a subwoofer is sealed or ported, if designed correctly using the proper driver, amplifier and enclosure, either subwoofer will be just as quick as the next. I have heard plenty of "slow" sealed subs and plenty of "quick" ported subs. In fact, the ported subs that I'm getting ready to build have a MAX group delay of only 11ms at 17Hz. If I were to make them sealed and perform near the same as ported, that group delay goes up to nearly 25ms at 20Hz. Which one of those designs do you think will sound "slow"? The important word you obviously did not understand in my original reply was "generally". It does not imply that there is anything inherently wrong with the design of a ported sub-woofer - merely that the majority of ported designs out there are not capable of keeping up with Heresy speakers. It is a rule of thumb guide and nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joebass Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Hi, I,ve got heresy2s and they rock with the tilted back risers they came with. Bass is adequit and tight. But I'm a bass *****, so I tried hooking up my velodyne HGs15bg2 with them. Absolutly awsome! As far as extra stuff in the delivery chain, do you want your system to sound better, or what you consider bass shy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 There is only one question here: Does it sound good? Dave WHAT ARE YOU SOME KIND OF HIPPIE? For one thing, there is only ONE kind of hippie, and the question is "Does it FEEL good." But what of that... So, once I picked through the philosophy and science, I think the answer was "No." Now, let me define "good" as I apply it. That means I hear nothing I can attribute to the system. To determine this, I use one of my own location recordings. As you know, I freely admit to being unable to tell the difference between a fine capacitor and a tomato paste can (though it seems the tomato paste can adds a certain indefinable richness and mellowness to the sound). But I NEVER forget the sound of a building in concert and I determine whether my system sounds "good" by anything I hear that was not present at the moment in time-space the sonic event took place. I suppose my interest in your question was more based in that it seemed you were asking whether you'd crossed some line of best practices or something. I've heard $$$$$$ matched systems that added or subtracted (or both) to my recordings and I've her $ systems made of totally unreleated garage sale acquistions that sounded almost perfect. I still consider "What a great sounding loudspeaker" to be a major insult. Equipment is, to me, a necessary evil in my quest for MVSICAL TRVTH. BTW, it appears that most of the damage inflicted by the Twins up around the Red River has been repaired. However, many appear to have simply pile their belongs in their pickup truchs and headed towards California as their grandparents did in response to the last great pestilence visited on the area some 70 years ago. I guess they never learn... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 My system has gotten so complicated, I've had to hire a part-time tech just to keep it up and running. Here is a picture of Gus with the paranormal equalizer he fashioned for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 Good one Paul! Thanks for all the input guys, until I get the risers built I think I'll keep playing around with the sub. Who knows maybe I'll overcome my mental bias and like the end-result. So how does this parallel stuff work anyways? Right now I'm running wires from the monos to the sub then to the speakers. With parallel do I run the wires from the monos to the speakers and then to the input on the sub, or do I run two sets of wires, one directly to the speakers and then one set up the same way as at the beggining of this paragraph? Dave, glad to hear Texas has recovered from The Twins. Did you know they were in New Orleans the week before Katrina? I don't think they are responsible but you never can tell. Oh, and Danny I think I'm still dating The Twins, but a problem has arisen (sigh, again) but more on that later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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