Peach competition

[@silverfox@]

meagain

it would seem you have a really enviable situation in as much that there are two pre's that are so close its difficult to tell the difference. i would just like to re-emphesise that the time needed to properley evulate the difference would be a prelong period listening to one,then no listening. then the next your ears will tell you .since its difficult to precieve the difference .use 1source material if you cant hear a difference you should feel it, or sense a diff. you might never be really able to choose one over the other,eventually you will determine a difference ,look for it in the moments between notes.[]

errol

[meagain]

It's not difficult to perceive the difference because there is none. And yes, I've done prolonged listening also.

Note: I'm not saying there's no difference in the sound from the 3 preamps individually. I'm saying there's no difference when routed through the Peach's HT bypass. We'll be going back to testing them without going thru the HT bypass to see what happens again. Though my husband has given up and is leaving it up to me to choose which one stays.

[meagain]

I have a storyfor you.

A well seasoned amplifier/preamp audio designer back in the 70's took 10 well seasoned audiophiles and placed them in a room with 2 preamps of identical electrical wiring and circuit. These were both proto types. One he place all kinds of extra chokes, transformers and tubes on the top of the naked chassis but in reality they were disconnected underneath the extra tubes were strictly running heaters only so the lit up. They did a 100% AB blind test and all 10 audiophile reported the preamp with the extra components had more weight and control to the sound!!! These preamps were dead nuts electrically identical. The mind can really screw you up.

Craig

Right, and I'd be there saying 'Don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining' - proclaiming I don't hear a difference, and they would all band together and tell me I have bad ears, and I'm listening "incorrectly". []

[sfogg]

" They did a 100% AB blind test and all 10 audiophile reported the

preamp with the extra components had more weight and control to the

sound!!! These preamps were dead nuts electrically identical. The mind

can really screw you up."

Which is exactly why the test should have been an A/B/X test.

They all could have claimed they heard a difference but the A/B/X test

would have show they didn't because they would have failed it.

That is the whole point. It adds a control to the comparison.

Shawn

[sfogg]

"When I do other a/b tests like switch the VRDs from Triode to Ultra

Linear, I can tell an instant, dramatic difference between the 2. Not

sure if others find this subtle or dramatic (like me)... but it sort

of tells me I'm not deaf?"

Did you level match between the two settings? I'd expect the gain of

the amp changes when you change modes.... so when you change modes the

volume level changes too. If so it should be a dramatic change when

that occurs. Not saying that is all that accounts for the difference in

sound but it certainly would account for some of it.

This is also the same problem with people making comparisons with amps

that have adjustable feedback. It isn't suprising most compare the no

feedback setting.... the no feedback setting has the most gain and

would be the loudest.

The real way to test that sort of thing is to balance the levels. I did

this on a Golden Tube SE-40 I use to have about 10 years ago. With just

casual listening the no feedback setting sounded better..... it was

louder but I didn't realize that at the time. When I level matched and

compared them blindfolded I found I prefered the sound with feedback.

Shawn

[Coytee]

Coytee,

" It's not like I have four of them laying around "

You probably do. Have any of the Stereophile test CDs? They all have 1kHz test tones on them. Ditto many of the other pretty common 'test' CDs that are out there.

1kHz is better then pink noise for this as it is more consistent.

Dang dude, you know more about what I got in my living room than I do! I totally forgot I had a test disk!

Now... what's my wife making me for dinner? []

[Coytee]

Coytee - you have an a/b switcher... Can you somehow duplicate this test with that to avoid using the HT bypass?

I guess I do have one (Niles). When I get my other amp pulled upstairs, I was thinking on doing just that... Well, truthfully, I was thinking if I could somehow bring in a third amp into the equation by using BOTH the HT switch and the Niles. Off the top of my head, I think it would work.

HT switch could control amp A & B through the Peach into the Niles and then if the Niles was on "B" it would cut BOTH of the Peach amps out (regardless of which one was selected) and slip in amp C.

No real reason I was thinking on doing it other than just because ! []

[NOSValves]

Shawn is correct the VRD's drop in output slightly when switched to Triode. I believe this is why most users perceive Triode as being less quality and they don't give it a true long term listen.

I still say AB or ABX testing is just a complete waste of time. Klipsch has been doing it with wire at the headquaters for years and repeatedly the majority completely fail the test.

What I can not believe is that Lisa, her husband and these freinds can not hear the difference between a HK home theater amplifiers preamp section and either tube preamps on hand.

Three of us were at a local Khorn owner house just today. His system was setup with a 3 way active crossover and he was using a Hafler SS preamp. We inserted my Blueberry in the system and all 3 of us heard a marked difference and it was not subtle at all. We had a complete blast all day switching mid horns, tweeters and gear with every single change we heard a difference. All 3 of us are some what seasoned listening to high end audio. Not one single setup sounded bad except a Crown amp running full range into 100% stock Khorns (with updated stock networks) being driven by the Blueberry. But they indeed all sounded different in one way or the other.

Something screwy is going on with Lisa system some where I just wish some local Chigaco Klipsters would go over there and help her out.

Craig

[PrestonTom]

I am going to reiterate what Shawn has said twice. Once the levels are matched, then many of the differences will disappear. This caveat is important!

However matching the level is not trivial. Shawn suggested matching at 1 kHz (equating voltage). This is a reasonable suggestion, although there are situations (devices with deviations from flat output) where this may not be sufficient.

A/B/X (or even better: A/X/B) testing is a standard procedure. Among researchers, it is a well-understood and a well-respected procedure. The problem is that if it is performed casually or improperly it can yield "differences" when none actually exist.

At a psychological / sociological level, the results run counter to many audio myths (speaker cable differences, the "magic" of certain devices etc). This can be a cultural shock to some. To others (manufacturers) it can threaten their economic livelihood.

As a side note, even when there are differences revealed, all you have is a detectable difference. You do not have a data point about which is "better"

Good Luck,

-Tom

[gonzp]

Coyotee, just an opinion,and you know what they say about opinions... but I have found in the past when I find myself being critical of my stereo and switching out various components and wanting to A/B components, speakers or wires the problem was about my music, rather than my gear. I am 44 and I too listened to classic rock. I broadened my musical choices and I realized that there is sooooo much good music out there that I was missing out on. Listening became so routine because all I listened to was the same music that I had been listening to since High School. I have the VRD's and I have listened extensivly to the amps and prefer them in triode mode. I do hear a differance at low listening levels. Mark hit on it in an earlier post when he said that he listenes to music that he enjoys when he is A/B ing. I got the stereo that I have wanted for quite awhile now and I am finding myself discovering differant music and updating an already extensive CD collection. PDG

[Coytee]

Three of us were at a local Khorn owner house just today. His system was setup with a 3 way active crossover and he was using a Hafler SS preamp. We inserted my Blueberry in the system and all 3 of us heard a market difference and it was not subtle at all. We had a complete blast all day switching mid horns, tweeters and gear with every single change we heard a difference. All 3 of us are some what seasoned listening to high end audio. Not one single setup sounded bad except a Crown amp running full range into 100% stock Khorns (with updated stock networks) being driven by the Blueberry. But they indeed all sounded different in one way or the other.

Here is part of what I'm trying to grasp. I presume you did a simple swap and did not do an A/B/X (or A/X/B) testing, yet you say you heard a market difference. Not subtle, but market. (I presume that to mean an easily quantifiable difference).

Fair enough, I belive you. Is it not also reasonable that if you had put a different pre in the loop and the 'market difference' might have been smaller? (or larger) Could it have been smaller to such an extent that they sounded very similar? (realizing that under some better conditions, some subtle nuances might have been noticed)

In other words, for some of these pieces that sound "close enough" to someone like me who does not have any kind of trained ear by the way, are we possibly talking about "splitting hairs on a gnat" differences?

I'm sure that if my stuff was setup in the best situation and a certain flavor of music or a cetain passage was played that any differeneces that might be there might be noticed. However, if that difference is only going to be noticed 10% of the time, is it worth it to pay 4X the price on the equipment? (that is just an illustration of my logic & not any commentary on any pieces of equipment)

And then of course, the bombshell... One must "know" the difference, in order to hear the difference.

What I mean by that is, when Mike was once over, he played a passage. I belive it was of Tracy Chapmen. We were listening to either 2A3's or OTL's. There was a note she held for a bit and as he pointed out (to my ignorant butt!), as she held that note, it sounded fine but as she carried it longer, the amp "ran out of gas" and the note was becoming noticably distorted. It was a very intersting illustration to me on how an amp can put out power and have only so much in reserve.

Quite honestly, that is something that I would have NEVER figured out on my own hence, I would have been ignorant to it and as a conclusion, would have never heard it.

(I've always learned something when he's been over to visit/help)

So, I'm onto the logic of matching the balance of the amps (via test tone which I found yesterday tyvm! ) Are there any suggested cd's/other that I might listen to in a A/B test (flawed as it may be). Would Diana Krall be a good test? Test tones? (yikes), Percussion? Perhaps 25 renditions of "Paper Roses" by Marie Osmond?

[6]

[NOSValves]

We used the same handfull of songs with each setup and listened for more then a few seconds or a minute, all 3 of us could here the difference in each step we tried. Mind you with my "marked change" statement we were not going from one tube pre to another when I stated a marked difference we went from a hafler SS pre to a Blueberry.

I did say we heard differences with every change throughout the day but did not say they were "marked" some were subtle and hard to nail down other were much easier. We did this for 6 hours.

By the way by the last hour I had a horrible headache and everything sounded just so so including VRD'S/Blueberry combo.

Craig

[Coytee]

. Mind you with my "marked change" statement we were not going from one tube pre to another when I stated a marked difference we went from a hafler SS pre to a Blueberry.

I get a small voice inside of me that says I should not admit to you that I'm referring (on my side) to a SS -vs- Peach then... (dbx CX-1)

[meagain]

Craig - So 'some' differences were "marked"?.... "We inserted my Blueberry in the system and all 3 of us heard a marked difference and it was not subtle at all."

What price point/quality level was this Hafler? I'm not familiar with them, nor know the model used.

Coytee - I'm of the belief that if I spend a significant amount of money on an upgrade.... say $2k, etc.... It BETTER be a marked/significant/dramatic/in your face/immediate improvement. If I have to d*ck around with it, listen for weeks on end, struggle THAT hard to glean a slight nuance or 2 improvement...... then I'm of the opinion that it's all leaning towards being..... a bunch of "bullsh*t". Unless I'm mega minted and willing to spend goodly sums for wispers.

[Frzninvt]

What in the world is so hard to believe here? That a $2.5K (1988 Dollars) Premium SS Pre with 1% tolerance parts sounds essentially identical to the Peach and virtually indistinguishable to the owner. Nothing too difficult to figure out here. Quality is quality!

You guys like making mountains out of mole hills.

[meagain]

A $2.5k price point back in the day? Sheesh! Coytee - Facts are facts as sure as eggs is eggs. Trust your ears. It is what it is.

[Frzninvt]

Just wait until he tries the matching amp for it! A measly $5K in '88-'89 it can run any speaker or load on the planet! A true amplifier it adds "nothing" to the sound. I would put it up against any other amp tubed or otherwise.

[NOSValves]

Craig - So 'some' differences were "marked"?.... "We inserted my Blueberry in the system and all 3 of us heard a marked difference and it was not subtle at all."

What price point/quality level was this Hafler? I'm not familiar with them, nor know the model used.

Way above a HK home theaters preamp section. It even has a remote[] I don't know the model and honestly could careless. When I said a marked difference did I say it was better in every respect? Quit reading thing in that are not present. I prefered the Blueberry but aspects of the Hafler had strong points also.

AGAIN AUDIO IS NOT CUT AND DRY..........

Coytee - I'm of the belief that if I spend a significant amount of money on an upgrade.... say $2k, etc.... It BETTER be a marked/significant/dramatic/in your face/immediate improvement. If I have to d*ck around with it, listen for weeks on end, struggle THAT hard to glean a slight nuance or 2 improvement...... then I'm of the opinion that it's all leaning towards being..... a bunch of "bullsh*t". Unless I'm mega minted and willing to spend goodly sums for wispers.

Quit Spending!!!

your expecting gear to take care of a speaker, room or system problem....When the problem could easily be you simply do not like Khorns or the room is just not friendly to them. We all have listening preferences. Yesterday I really didn't prefer this guys system until the mid horns were placed on top of his Khorn and toed out. Yup his Khorns are about 13" apart!!!!!!!! You can't spend your way out.

[NOSValves]

What in the world is so hard to believe here? That a $2.5K (1988 Dollars) Premium SS Pre with 1% tolerance parts sounds essentially identical to the Peach and virtually indistinguishable to the owner. Nothing too difficult to figure out here. Quality is quality!

You guys like making mountains out of mole hills.

Frz,

Are you talking about the Hafler? You have things mixed up reread the thread. The Hafler does not sound anything even remotely similar to the BB Xtreme everyone prefered the BB Xtreme even the owner of the Hafler. NOW LET ME AGAIN STATE THE HAFLER WOULD NOT BE DESCRIBED AS BAD!! BUT DIFFFERENT FOR SURE.

My god this is exhausting......

Craig

[Coytee]

Speaking for myself only, but I'm not sure that anyone is defining different as worse. Different is different and that is all it can be. It would be up to each to decide if it was better/worse.

I'm just saying that when I swapped pre's, I couldn't tell any (and I mean any) discernable difference between the two.

You said that you swapped some pre's out and you DID hear some immediate differences (neither good/bad, just not the same sound). That goes to show that there CAN be immediately discernable differences between two pre's without having to wait hours & hours between listening (at least, that's how I read it).

I'm perfectly aware that even if two pre's DO sound different, they might both sound just as "good", but in different ways.

[]