why do club speakers suck

[MarkBK]

Acoustics and sound quality, all too often, are last on the list of concerns - fidelity is NOT something considered by most clubs....there are exceptions, but all to few of them even in a city like Chicago.

[DizRotus]

Glenn-

Let's hope the Joe is better to the boys!

[boom3]

One of my favorite watering holes has 2 LaScalas, in corners, up at the ceiling/wall juncture,along with a mix of other speakers, the club is relatively small and does not have a dance floor. The primary DJ, whom I've know for years, actually knows who Paul was and is a bit of an audiophile himself.

Years ago I frequented a bar that had one of the best sounding systems ever heard in such a small footprint. It's hard to make critical musical evaluations while intoxed, but this system was very fine. It had a JBL subwoofer in a huge wooden cabinet, a midrange and tweeter horn hanging over the bar and pointed out into the room and four identical main speakers spaced along the walls. Those main speakers? Bose 901 Series IIs. Go figure...

[colterphoto1]

I installed 4 LS in a club called Dick's Harem House back in the 80's. Yes it was THAT kind of establishment. Funny thing how most of the wires had to be routed through the dressing room. The ladies were a lot of fun in the afternoons.

I was in early 20's then. I spent of lot of time there 'tweaking' their system that summer.[]

[picky]

Neil: @*#YEOWCH!*# [:S]

That wasn't any fun. -Glenn

[disco1999]

They cut the mids so that bartenders can hear what you want to drink.

Also, loud mids are more likely to give headaches when exposed for a long time.

[DrWho]

Some more theory for you guys...

A lot of inexperienced sound guys don't realize that the "punch" of

bass also requires material in the 1kHz region. Try listening to the

40Hz range of material from a kick drum - it's dull and lifeless. In

order for it to get punchy sounding you need to have the higher

frequencies "trigger your ears". Our ears don't hear low notes very

well so what happens is the high frequency tells your ears "hey, there

is a sound occuring now"...and only then will you really be able to

hear the low punch of the instrument. And by punch I am referring to

that which makes you want to shake your butt...

So what happens is your inexperienced DJ is thinking "MORE BASS ahhhh"

and starts pumping the crap out of the low frequencies. But the system

doesn't start sounding punchier until the harmonic distortion from the

woofers gets loud in the upper harmonics (like the 1kHz region). But by

that time it's sounding wierd because the amps are clipping everything

and it's a distorted "trigger signal" - so not super clean...but it

doesn't matter because it's so fricken loud by that time anyway.

If there is anyone in the Champaign area I would be more than willing

to demonstrate this effect. You DO NOT need SPL's over 110dB to have a

rockin club.

As far as bartender's being able to hear your orders...there are rather

simple acoustical tricks that can be implemented to make it not an

issue. Every venue is going to be different, but there is no reason why

the sound needs to suffer everywhere.

There are also long term effects of having really loud music...you

introduce hearing damage in your audience which requires the system to

get louder and louder in order for them to hear it. The said part is

most DJ's are already pushing the system to its max, which means more

equipment is necessary. In fact, I will never understand why every DJ

I've run into feels the need to peak out every system they get

behind...it makes absolutely no sense because all they accomplish is

robbing themselves of headroom while forcing a threshold shift on

everyone's hearing. The best way to make a system louder is to make the

quieter parts quieter....not compress the crap out of the system to

make the quieter parts louder.

End of rant

And for what it's worth, I'm not directing this at anyone here because

I've never been to the club of anyone here...I'm just speaking for the

huge majority of DJ's out there that I've run across. But if anyone

finds themself trying to justify levels above 100dB then might I

suggest taking an inventory to see if you really know what you're doing.

(after an hour at 100dB your hearing has about a 6dB threshold shift -

such that 100dB now sounds like 94dB. It only takes half an hour for

110dB and like 15 minutes for 120dB...so if you've got it at 115dB,

then every 20 minutes you're looking at thing seeming 6dB quieter...so

by the end of a 4 hour nite 140dB only sounds like 90dB...)

[justin_tx_16]

Because they weren't KLIPSCH!!!!!!!

I actually went to a club in San Francisco the other night, the place is about 40 years old. They had Klipsch Heritage speakers all around. Probably put in when the place first opened too haha. They still sounded great though! Four of them are outdoors in the elements, crazy!

[colterphoto1]

To expound on DrWho's dissertation (well said Doc), first to address the kick drum sound.

When mixing live music, and to an extent recorded tracks, the kick drum (driving force behind rock and club music) does indeed have two distinct tones. One, which I call the 'click' is the batter hitting the first head. Then there is the sound of the drum itself, the low tuned THUD. Most people micing and mixing the kick will forget about the importance of the initial attack of the instrument and even go so far as to turn down the treble on the kick- mistake.

Secondly there is a phenomenon known as 'fader creep. When mixing or Dj'ing as the mixer's ears get used to the sound level, each succeeding track or one instrument at a time, the level will gradually continue to increase. If the engineer has started the mix at a resonable level, there should be ample headroom in the system to accomodate this. If not, watch out! When at the controls I always made a conscience effort on slow or mellow songs to purposely dump the volume considerably to give everyone's ears a breather and to score additional headroom.

Just .02 from an old soundman.

M

[DizRotus]

Who and Michael-<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

My experience with my 4 Speakerlab Skhorns and 300 WPC of Dynaco ST-400 power was consistent with your posts. I too made a conscious decision to slow it down and lower the volume periodically to regain some headroom and to give everyones hearing a breather.

Even so, I feel that I did permanent damage to my high frequency hearing. I jokingly refer to my job deafening adolescents all over greater <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Detroit when I tell someone about my mobile DJ days. I know that I did regular damage to T-35 voice coils; I mustve replaced a dozen over two years.

[DrWho]

Who and Michael-

My experience with my 4 Speakerlab Skhorns and 300 WPC of Dynaco ST-400 power were consistent with your posts. I

too made a conscious decision to slow it down and lower the volume

periodically to regain some headroom and to give everyones hearing a

breather.

Even so, I feel that I did permanent damage to my high frequency hearing. I jokingly refer to my job deafening adolescents all over greater Detroit when I tell someone about my mobile DJ days. I know that I did regular damage to T-35 voice coils; I mustve replaced a dozen over two years.

It's a bummer that kind of experience isn't easily passed on down to

the newer generations...sound sytems are getting cheaper, which means

more SPL for the buck - requiring more control from the dude riding the

volume knob.

I'm actually trying to get some school clubs (club as in group, not

the dance house) started down here on campus where there will be a good

outlet for training. Now to find real professionals in the field to

come down and teach...I'm not sure everyone wants to listen to me talk

for a year, lol.

[seti]

[]but they only suck half the time[]

[*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)]

[oldtimer]

To expound on DrWho's dissertation (well said Doc), first to address the kick drum sound.

When mixing live music, and to an extent recorded tracks, the kick drum (driving force behind rock and club music) does indeed have two distinct tones. One, which I call the 'click' is the batter hitting the first head. Then there is the sound of the drum itself, the low tuned THUD. Most people micing and mixing the kick will forget about the importance of the initial attack of the instrument and even go so far as to turn down the treble on the kick- mistake.

Secondly there is a phenomenon known as 'fader creep. When mixing or Dj'ing as the mixer's ears get used to the sound level, each succeeding track or one instrument at a time, the level will gradually continue to increase. If the engineer has started the mix at a resonable level, there should be ample headroom in the system to accomodate this. If not, watch out! When at the controls I always made a conscience effort on slow or mellow songs to purposely dump the volume considerably to give everyone's ears a breather and to score additional headroom.

Just .02 from an old soundman.

M

Great stuff Colter, I like your kick drum point especially. I used a wooden beater on my pedal, combined with a pad which had a solid disk behind a lightly padded foam cover. The cover would wear out really fast so over that I put traditional moleskin to avoid a "knock knock" sound. This gave me definition to the max yet with a low thud, exactly as you describe.

[jacksonbart]

[]but they only suck half the time[]

[*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)]

Was the punch line, how often do they swallow?

[colterphoto1]

[]but they only suck half the time[]

[*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)][*-)][8-)]

Was the punch line, how often do they swallow?

I'm glad you're here, I look not so sick by comparison!