meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Now - what exactly do I do to do these phase tests? 3-d - please explain? We're sure I'm not going to blow these speakers are we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 No. We are not going to blow those speakers! It would be interesting to see the results of reversing the squaker at the extremes of 400 and 6KHz. You definately have a "hump" in the 6-10KHz range. Which K-55s do you have? Push pin or solder? I have been finding this very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 OK - I unplug everything from the xover except the squawker. Reverse the squawk wires on the crossover. Run noise. Yes? I have K-55-v (soldered), K-77-m. Isn't the hump in the tweeter area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 No full range. Just reverse the 5 and 2 leads. The hump is in the overlap area where they slopes cross. I am listening to my Belles nowwith a pair of Al and Dean'sdesign networks. I don't percieve a hump in that area. I just did that now and the reversal seemed to upset the balance. I don't have an analizer to look at, just my ears. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 reverse the 5 & 2 leads? Hmmm... ? The taps? I'm not sure what you & sfogg want me to do with this polarity phase issue. I need to know exactly what I should unplug/plug and to where? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 On the crossovers, just put the #5 lead where the # 2 is now and visa versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 I could have sworn Dean told me that could be a bad thing? But I trust ya. I'm leaving the mic in the middle of the room till someone tells me otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Wait a fricking minute.... Someone run down again which colors go to what taps? Does the black squawk wire go to 5 or 4? Or the red one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Black Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Whew! good. Gosh - I don't see any/much change with reversing 5&2? Right speak. Mic in center of room (sweetspot). Proper taps 5/2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Right khorn. Mic in center/sweetspot. Taps 5/2 reversed so red is on 5, black is on 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Rick, Yeah, I was kind of wondering if the right squakwer might be out of phase. It is hard to tell from this pictures though but in some of the shots its looks like she has some cancelation at the crossover points in that speaker. The tweeter hotness just looks like a hot tweeter. I think the level rolloff above 12k is just the normal response of the k77. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 OK - clicking on the pics to open them in a different window for comparison.... I see no change really. Shouldn't these be drastically different from each other given the polarity/phase thing is totally reversed in one picture? Yipes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 It looks flatter from 250 to 5KHz (excluding that 500 Hz suck-out) +/-2.5 Db. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 No, they shouldn't look dramatically different. You aren't seeing phase, you are seeing amplitude/freq on an RTA. What you are looking for is the effects of the differening phase between the drivers where they are working together. What you should see if more raggedness around 400hz and around 6000hz. To me it looks like you have a little bit smoother response around 400hz with the taps connected properly. Not much difference at 6kHz.... with the path length difference the drivers are out of phase either way really and you might not be able to see the difference at 1/3 octave. I had to look at around 1/24 octave to see tweeter polarity effects in my system. While you have the taps reversed on the right speaker is the left speaker still connected normally? If so listen to the system like this. Tell me if you get good central imaging on voices or not. AVIA has a phase test... try that. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 With the two woofer alone tests... the mic is equal distance from both K'Horn and you used the same mic position... correct? Also you didn't touch the volume control when you switched side to side correct? Is their radical differences in the room left to right? Above 40hz their response looks pretty close in that test with the same peaks and such which could be room artificats. However... the right woofer looks like it is nearly 5dB more efficient then the left woofer. Considering the FR that would surprise me a little if that was all from the room. If the room was causing a reflection that boosted certain frequencies I would think the FR would look quite a bit different. When you played the pink noise in each speaker did the right sound louder then the left? Do you have a Radio Shack SPL meter? If so play the pink noise in each woofer along and measure the SPL level at the same point in the room. Is one speaker reading louder then the other? How much of a difference is there with C weighting vs A weighting? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 BTW... I have no idea if the Behringer offers the option of it or not but if it offers averaging or a 'slow' response time on the RTA be sure to use that. It helps give a little bit more consistency to measurements. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 3d - which one of those 2 looks better to you? top or bottom? Sforgg - I left the right with 5/2 reversed and the left proper. At first I thought the imaging was right, but then felt the vocal steered to the right. I changed the taps on the right to proper and felt it was centered. This is probably not technically possible, but that was my impression after a day of this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardhead Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I don't see a great mystery here re the HF section. It's a fact well-documented in this forum that the K-77-M tweeter is 3-5 dB hotter than the K-55-V, and the K-77-M's hottest area is from 5K Hz through about 9K Hz. There are graphs posted by Al K, for example, on the forum that clearly demonstrate this fact. If you add that fact to the other well-documented fact that the ALK crossover and its variations, because of both the quality of the parts and the design, have about 3 dB less loss in the tweeter section than the AA crossovers (and perhaps the A's for all I know), then the result is a pair of K-77-M's that simply play too loud. That's what meagain's graph is showing. Lowering the loudness of the HF by adding L-pads or the ALK tweeter attenuator (preferably the ALK, if HF is important to you) would fix THAT problem, and you could go on to the others. One thing that may help to raise the mid-range volume is a pair of K-55-M's which have also been documented on this forum as being about 1.5-2 dB's more efficient than the K-55-V's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 3d - which one of those 2 looks better to you? top or bottom? Bottom. That is the pic on this page. The top is your earlier pic. I wanted to see them together to compare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.