What Behringer DEQ2496 Says About My Room - (pic)

[meagain]

Yes, I'm going to focus on the tweeters and ignore all the other goofyness for now. Must focus on one thing at a time.

But - help me puzzle this one out....

The old crossovers don't show that 315 dip. So I swaped between old and new at least 3 times right now and tested. They repeated themselves perfectly each time. No dip on old. Dip on new. No question. If it's a room thing, I don't see why the old xover would repeatedly show no dip, but the new one does. Ya know?

I put new 315 dippy xover in the right. The dip moved toward the 260-270 range but is less dramatic. I did not yet do the reverse tap/polarity test on that speaker. Perhaps I should do that now?

That one particular crossover and the left speaker don't like each other. The old crossovers like it just fine. NOPE! I take that back, both new crossovers do the 315 dip on that left khorn. But the old ones don't. It all repeats itself perfectly. Maybe something amiss with the left speaker that doesn't communicate with the new crossovers properly.

[meagain]

Yipes. I reversed taps 5/2 on the left speaker. (black woof going to 2 intead of 5).

Dip went away! I'm going to do this a few times to make sure it repeats. Here's a pic showing the big 315 dip going away. Not sure what this means for me.

[sfogg]

"I'm going to focus on the tweeters and ignore all the other goofyness for now..... But "

Then focus on the tweeters. "But's" are not ignoring goofyness. Do you want to potentially solve your main complaint or don't you?!?!?

Literally 2 minutes setting up a L/R parametric EQ....... 10 minutes if you have to RTFM to do it.

Regarding the dip..... you have just started looking at measurements and have little to no experience in this area. Many others in this forum have zero experience in this area too. Play pink noise and walk around with the mic. You are going to see all sorts of goofyness all over the place. Welcome to the real world.

One of the critical things someone that wants to learn things from measurements is understanding what is important, and what isn't. And learning what can be dealt with effectively and what can't. You gotta learn to crawl before you can walk... and walk before you can run.

The dip isn't an issue at your listening position. Don't sweat it.

If the problem was directly in the networks, drivers or horn itself it would be a problem everywhere in the room. It is not.

That at one point one set of crossovers (crossovers #1) has the dip and another doesn't (crossover #2) means little. It could just be a difference in phase between the two or a slight difference in crossover points which causes that point to be a null between woofer/squawker. That would suggest the dip is related to driver interaction. Low slope crossovers have lots of driver interaction... that is just the way it is. If you look for it you could very likely find another point where crossover #1 has no dip while crossover #2 does. Put any crossover you have into the K'Horn and play the pink noise. Move up and down vertically a few feet in front of one of the K'Horns and listen to the noise. Tonally it is going to change noticeably while doing this. That it only happens in one K'Horn in that specific location means the room likely has an element in it too. You said the left speaker is using a false corner while the right isn't. That means things aren't the same WRT to room left to right. Add in low slope crossovers and the speakers dispersion into the room gets weirder too. Again... welcome to the real world.

DEAL WITH THE TWEETERS!!!!

Shawn

[Al Klappenberger]

meagain,

That glitch may have simply moved to another place in the room. Move the mike around and get an average. Reversing polarity often just moves the glitches and does not really get rid of them. They will form at different places in the room and at different frequencies becasue the sound from each driver at the crossover has random phase throughout the room. You never know where the two will add or cancell each other out. This is also why trying to equalize for a flat response in the far fieled (listening position) is a waste of time.

BTW: As you moved the mile around to find the average, keep it in the near field, that is, within about 5 feet or so from the speaker and move it side to side.

Another point to keep in mind: Your brain fills in the narrow dips. Do NOT try to equalize them up. It's the high spikes that can be a problem.

AL K.

[sfogg]

This is a sidetrack...again.... but... you have swapped phase on the squawker several times now. Have you actually verified which way is in acoustic phase with the other speaker? We tried to do this earlier but I'm not sure you ever were certain you got it correct.

To make it easier to hear mostly the squaker .... unplug the woofers in both K'Horns.

Pop in you Avia disc and play the Phase Left Front/ Right Front test.

What do you end up hearing?

If the 'in phase' section sounds diffuse and the 'out of phase' section is localized front and center swap the polarity of whatever squawker you have been working on again and try it again.

Once you get the 'in phase' to image front/center leave the squawkers alone and reconnect your woofers.

Then fix your tweeters.

Shawn

[meagain]

Well - I thought it was a significant development when the old crossovers AND reversing the polarity on the new - dramatically raised up the 315 dip (first pic on page 12) on the leaf speak. Over & over again. Mic is 36" away. I sort of thought that was a big deal.

Sfogg - I'm running to the drugstore, then will do this phase thing, then tweeters.

[sfogg]

"This is also why trying to equalize for a flat response in the far fieled (listening position) is a waste of time."

No one has said to just try and make everything on the RTA flat at the listening position.

To ignore the rooms effect on the playback though is simply too simplistic a view of an actual system. Hire any acoustician to come and analyze a room and they will for darn sure be taking measurements at the listening position (among other places.)

"Another point to keep in mind: Your brain fills in the narrow dips. Do NOT try to equalize them up. It's the high spikes that can be a problem. "

Very true. One of the big problems is 1/3 octave EQs can gloss over sharp narrow spikes and make then look not nearly as bad as they really are.

Shawn

[sfogg]

"Well - I thought it was a significant development when the old crossovers AND reversing the polarity on the new - dramatically raised up the 315 dip (first pic on page 12) on the leaf speak. Over & over again. Mic is 36" away. I sort of thought that was a big deal."

It might be if that squawker was out of phase all along. Or it might have made a dip at the listening position now and/or also thrown that squawker out of phase with your other squawker.... that would be bad.

Shawn

[jacksonbart]

can you pick me up some aspirin?

[meagain]

Sfogg - I made sure all the taps (5/2) were "proper" on the xovers. (They way they're supposed to be). The Avia is running now and I must say I'm struggling with it.

When the screen says "in phase" - I hear the right speaker. When it says "out of phase" I hear it in the center. I feel something is amiss.

[sfogg]

"Sfogg - I made sure all the taps (5/2) were "proper" on the xovers. (They way they're supposed to be)."

Which doesn't actually mean they are in phase if one of your drivers was wired wrong internally. It happens.

"When the screen says "in phase" - I hear the right speaker. When it says "out of phase" I hear it in the center. I feel something is amiss."

OK... now we are (finally??) making progress.

Verify this... you have the woofers disconnected from both K'Horns? Basically listening to just the squawkers/tweeters. Correct?

You are using a 2 channel pre-amp or are in two channel mode if you are using a home theater receiver?

If both of those are YES

REVERSE the polarity of one of your squawkers. Stick to the side you have been playing with.

Now.... try to AVIA polarity test again.

Does 'in phase' sound front and center? If so leave everything to way it is as that is proper. (EDIT... mean leave the squawker wired this way... you can reconnect your woofers. )

Shawn

[meagain]

Oh my goodness!!!!! Wish you all could be here right now. I'm in some type of freeky Audio Twilight Zone.

The ONLY way to get them in phase soundwise is to have one crossover on reversed taps and the other the way they should be. I'm not kidding you. When the black wire that should be on tap 5 is put on 2 - and leaving the other crossover with black on 5 (as it should).... that's the ONLY combo that gives me proper phase.

I quadruple checked the driver wires on the squawk. Soldered with a clear red mark on the solder area. That's attached to the red wire which is hooked up to the red squawk port on the crossovers. I quadruple checked my speaker wire.

Is it possible the crossovers are out of phase with "each other"? Could it be my squawker despite looking visually proper? All I know is - reversing the taps on ONE crossover - gives me phase. The sound is dead center where it should be and it feels right. And that is when the screen says "in phase".

[:|]

[meagain]

"Verify this... you have the woofers disconnected from both K'Horns? Basically listening to just the squawkers/tweeters. Correct? Yes sir. Woofs disconnected in both.

You are using a 2 channel pre-amp or are in two channel mode if you are using a home theater receiver? Yes sir. 2 channel If both of those are YES REVERSE the polarity of one of your squawkers. Stick to the side you have been playing with. Now.... try to AVIA polarity test again. Does 'in phase' sound front and center? YES! If so leave everything to way it is as that is proper. (EDIT... mean leave the squawker wired this way... you can reconnect your woofers. ) Shawn

How the hell would I have ever known to flip the taps on one crossover (against mfg directions) and leave the other properly setup? []

[sfogg]

"Is it possible the crossovers are out of phase with "each other"? "

Possible, yes. (Sorry Dean... but it is possible)

"Could it be my squawker despite looking visually proper?"

This too is possible. There are two more wires INSIDE the squawker. They could be backwards inside. The only way to correct for that is to switch the wiring externally unless you feel like opening them back up and fixing it. I posted about this on page 4 I think.

OK.. however you have it now is WHERE YOU SHOULD LEAVE IT. All that really matters is acoustic phase, not that the colors line up.

As another test... unplug the squawker/tweeter and do the same test listening just to the woofers.

Make sure they are in phase too. The likely will be, if they weren't you would have no bass. But do this just to verify.

Report back when done....

Shawn

[sfogg]

"How the hell would I have ever known to flip the taps on one crossover (against mfg directions) and leave the other properly setup? "

You likely wouldn't. If the entire speaker was out of phase with the other side it is obvious... no bass. But when a single driver is out of phase that is much more subtle if it isn't the woofers.

(mini rant....) This is why everyone should own test CDs with a good selection of tones on them!!!!

The 100hz, 1000hz test I mentioned pages ago would have nailed this right on the spot. (end mini rant...)

If you to want try the same test just listening to the tweeters. They won't have much output during that test though so it will be harder to verify their polarity.

Shawn

[meagain]

GRRRRR!!!! (stomping feet). Is it odd that it doesn't matter which side the reverse taps takes place on? I think I'll leave the reverse tap xover on the left speaker cuz it removed that 315 mega-dip.

Will do woofers only now. I'm semi-afraid to run tweeter only. But if you think it won't blow them up - OK. (Also, I'd bet 1 million dollars nothing is wrong with the internal wireing of my squawkers).

Shawn saves the day!!!! I vascillate being pissed over the whole thing, vs. happy I'm not crazy and there's something 'real' going on.

[sfogg]

"Is it odd that it doesn't matter which side the reverse taps takes place on?"

No that isn't odd. Flipping either side would get the drivers back in phase with each other. It is like having two playing cards... one face up the other face down. You flip either one and then both cards will either be face up or both cards will be face down.

However... besides just having the squawkers in phase between both speakers you also need to be in phase between the squawker and woofer and tweeters (as much as that is possible) within the same speaker itself. Think of three playing cards per speaker... they all need to be face up or face down together... and the speaker on the other side needs the cards to match.

In a nutshell if you do the wrong squawker you in effect are going to throw the squawkers in both speakers out of phase with the tweeter/woofer in each speaker.

Since the path lengths are so different in the K'Horn it won't be like 0 and 180 degrees out of phase. More like closer to in phase then not.

"I think I'll leave the reverse tap xover on the left speaker cuz it removed that 315 mega-dip."

Wish you had a 400hz test tone or an RTA with more preceision then 1/3 octave..... but since you don't try this way and see how it sounds.

Actually... another thing to try... disconnect both tweeters. Change the phase of one of your squawkers. This way you have a speaker that has to be in phase with the woofer and one that isn't. (assuming you verified the woofers were in phase with each other) Play pink noise. Listen to each speaker alone from your listening position. See if you can hear one that sort of has a hole or a phasey sound to it in the vocal range. Try to ignore the difference in bass response below 40hz between the two if you can.

"I'm semi-afraid to run tweeter only. But if you think it won't blow them up - OK."

As long as they are going through the crossover and you don't crank the sound you should be fine.

Shawn

[meagain]

Woofers sound phased right. Tweeters sound like a field of crickets/locusts - very hard to tell as you said.

Well well well....... who woulda thunk it.

[sfogg]

Yeah, the phasing on the tweeters will be hard to tell. As such it is less of an issue there and just leave them alone. The wavelengths are so small they can be out of phase just from the distance between your ears....

OK... making progress.....

You have a choice to make.

A) We can try to verify the phase between woofer/squawker (the pink noise comparison I mentioned)

We can just go with the phasing as you have it now and move onto EQing the tweeters brightness

C) You can take a break and spend some time listening to the system like this to see if you think it sounds better.

D) A then B

Let me know and we can proceed.....

Shawn

[meagain]

I can't tell with this woof/squawk pink test. I just can't tell anything. Just sounds like "shhhhhhhh" to me.

I guess I'd like to fix this issue before moving to the tweeters. I'm thinking option D, but don't think my ears can hear the test in 'A'. Maybe this DEQ has something that can help but IDK about it. I'm going to check the manual.