What Behringer DEQ2496 Says About My Room - (pic)

[sfogg]

You can try a couple of measurements.

Put the mic at the sweet spot.

Pick one speaker (I think the left has looked smoother?) and play pink noise and measure it.

Swap the polarity of the driver IN THAT SAME SPEAKER and remeasure it again.

You may not be able to see it at 1/3 octave but one way should look smoother in the area around 400hz then the other.

Maybe repeat the test at a few other positions and see if you can find if one orientation looks consistantly smoother then the other.

Test the same speaker all the time to keep the room influences the same.

If you can not see/hear a difference this is another maybe not to drive yourself crazy about. The squawker in a K'Horn can't really be exactly in phase with the woofer anyway because of the path length differences between them.

Shawn

[Deang]

Lisa,

I don't mean to muddy the waters here, but I just read where you said tap 5/black wire and tap 2/red wire. It's actually the other way around. I'm sure I sent you the graphic showing the various attenuation levels achieved with the different taps and which ones are negative and which ones are positive. At any rate, here is another one I recently finished which might be more helpful.

[meagain]

I think I can't do these tests properly with what I have. I guess I could buy the test tones and nail it down - but it looks like these xovers are going back so....

IMO - the right is a wash between reversed/normal. I lean towards normal looking smoother on the right. The left - reverse seems to work better. At least it immediately removes that 315 dip.

Maybe I'll listen to music and I'll have an epiphany as to which side should be reversed. Or heck - maybe it doesn't matter. Cuz the inverted xover is now "right"?

Maybe I'll still do the tweeter chill down and that would tell me if this DEQ can handle it properly for me. Vs. buying L-pads, etc.

I've been listening to out of phase squawkers (at least)... all this time? I never ever would have thought to reverse ONE crossover like that. I knew something funky was going on. Feeling a bit depressed about everything about now.

[Deang]

Shawn, I say start with the woofers. Once proper phasing is established between the K-33's and K-55's, we will then know which K-55 is wired wrong (either at the diaphragm or with an incorrect factory mark on the outside of the driver with the leads reversed). At that point, she can put the tap settings where they are supposed to be (correct colored wire on corresponding tap), and flip the leads on the terminal strip.

You're putting on a nice clinic here Shawn, great stuff. BTW, look at the network layout Shawn, do you really think I accidently soldered the .20mH lead to tap 0 instead of tap 5?

[Parrot]

Don't argue... just do it.

Favorite line (from page 5).

[meagain]

Dean - it doesn't matter what color goes to what. One wants to be reversed. If they are both on the right tap as per the chart above - they are out of phase on the phase test. One I reverse one crossover - the phase test works.

The phase test was done with the woofers dissconnected.

So now what do I do? The k-55-v's are soldered with a red dot (nailpolish) on the red wire. Are you saying something is wrong with the driver?

[meagain]

I probably should put my old xovers back in and run the phase test.

[3dzapper]

"Verify this... you have the woofers disconnected from both K'Horns? Basically listening to just the squawkers/tweeters. Correct? Yes sir. Woofs disconnected in both.

You are using a 2 channel pre-amp or are in two channel mode if you are using a home theater receiver? Yes sir. 2 channel If both of those are YES REVERSE the polarity of one of your squawkers. Stick to the side you have been playing with. Now.... try to AVIA polarity test again. Does 'in phase' sound front and center? YES! If so leave everything to way it is as that is proper. (EDIT... mean leave the squawker wired this way... you can reconnect your woofers. ) Shawn

How the hell would I have ever known to flip the taps on one crossover (against mfg directions) and leave the other properly setup? [].

I have been saying that since I joined the forum. The red marks are just mile posts. They are not gospel written in stone. Proper phasing between all the drivers is crucial to getting all the "magic" out of the Klipschorn box.

Thanks Shawn.

It's more likely a mismarked driver than a Deanover problem. When you haveeverything sorted out, make your own red and black marks for your future reference.

Of "coarse" we haven't even gotten into the attack phase yet.[]

Rick

[meagain]

So - I can just take the wires and flip them in the xover. If I'm wrong - will that hurt them? I'm afraid to do damage here.

[3dzapper]

No it does not make a difference to the driver. The driver sees AC signal, you have one AC signal lined up with the other.

Rick

[gaspr]

Dean, looking at the autoformer on your drawing, should the 4 not be above the X ?

Garth

[meagain]

I may be eating crow here in a bit. I have the old xovers in and they seem to be phasing right. If I move my head literally (no lie) about 4 inches to the right, etc. The whole field changes freekishly dramatically. Let me redo the test. I must say I was sure of it before. But now I need to redo this.

[Deang]

Garth, nitpicker. How do yours sound to you -- might as well chime in too.

Lisa, I'm just talking about the wires coming from the squawker that connect to the barrier strip. After this phasing issue is straightened out, it will remove potential confusion later if the wires for the mis-wired driver switched on the barrier strip instead of the taps of the autoformer.

[sfogg]

You need to be equally spaced between the speakers for the phase test to work properly. Move off center and it won't be as obvious. Physically moving side to side changes the relative phase between the two speakers. That along with the amplitude changes will change the imaging. It will pull to the side you are moving too.

The fun of a two channel systems sweet spot.

Shawn

[meagain]

You are very correct. It's quite shocking actually. I didn't know I had to have my ears in this tiny limited area. I was so sure of this result when I did it. Then I reversed the taps on the one crossover - sure of it again. Then I redid that ad nauseum and declared it.

I did the old crossovers with all speakers running. I think this makes a big difference. The new ones were tested with just the squawker/teeter? I just did the new xovers with just the squawker and honestly - I'm confused about it. Hard to tell Added the tweeter... and well... going to let hubby decide when he gets home. I've been listening to pink noise for 2 days and.... Well, I would say this phase test is convoluted to me.

Anyway Sfogg - I emailed hubby about test tones and he found the 400hz off the net. I hope that's as good as a cd? Should I have him get other frequencies? Maybe these frequency tests will help figure out if I have a woofer issue etc.

LOL - Can anyone just ENVISION Dean smiling and saying "Woo! I dodged a bullet!". Just hold your horses mister. You're not out of the woods yet! []

[gaspr]

Dean, sorry bout the nitpicking.[] Just wondered if somehow my autoformers were marked wrong.

After struggling for a while to find a good balance with the ALK

Jrs, I found that I am really starting to like them at the 5

& 2 setting. I still may try some tweeter attenuators at some

point. I am now running a different SS amp. That seems to

have helped clean up the HF quite a bit.

Meagain, as a new owner of Deans ALK jrs I am following your

efforts with interest. Keep up the good work and thanks for

sharing with the forum.

Garth

[Deang]

The thing is Lisa, I had those networks in my system, and they were certainly in there long enough that if something odd was going on with them, I would have noticed it right away. Now, with that said, I can tell you that when performance doesn't exceed expectation -- I take it very hard. So, no -- I'm not out of the woods, and won't consider myself to be in the clear until you quit bitching.

Why don't you let me put some nice L-pads on those tweeters? I told you I wouldn't charge for it, and you would only have to pay shipping one way.

[sfogg]

"I did the old crossovers with all speakers running. I think this makes a big difference."

Of course it does.

However, the entire point of not having the woofers running is so you don't get confused if the woofers were in phase and not the squawkers. You might think the whole system was in phase since the woofers would have been. This is what I think happened the first time you tried the phase test pages and pages ago.

That is why I had you disconnect the woofers so you could hear mostly just the squawkers for the phase test to see if they were in phase left to right.

As a suggestion... for now stop worrying if it is the crossovers or the drivers that are at fault. Don't switch in other crossovers. You keep throwing in additional variables that are confusing the issue(s) and making it very hard to get to the bottom of the problem(s). Take things one step at a time and lets try to get the system singing. This is hard enough to debug from a distance. It is even more so when we keep heading off on tangents.

Stick with one setup of crossovers and lets get the system setup as well as we can so that you can see if you like it or not.

Shawn

[meagain]

I know Dean. Have you considered if I thought there were problems with your crossovers, I would have sent them back to you long ago? Though I must confess to going so far as to grab the boxes the first week after I got them. Can't account for any big drop during shipping though. I wouldn't mind my xovers pimped out. First I need to learn what L pads are.

When I do the phase test with woofs disconnected - I hear a "center channel" when it's supposed to be out of phase. When it's supposed to be in phase - I hear the sound more from the l/r speakers, the air, or more on the sides of the room. Just when I'm convinced it's out of phase, I start overthinking it.

Naturally, we all know in the end - they'll be just fine. So I should put this on the backburner and nuke the tweeters.

[mikebse2a3]

Shawn Said:

Wish you had a 400hz test tone or an RTA with more preceision then 1/3 octave..... but since you don't try this way and see how it sounds.

Shawn the Behringer RTA has 1/6 octave resolution on the Page Three of the RTA Menu which is the display Lisa is taking pictures of.

I believe that when the Squawker and Tweeter are in phase in the left speaker and the 315Hz null goes away is the correct hookup and if I followed all this completely with both old and new crossovers being used that the left speaker is were the problem is and only with one of Deans Crossovers. If I'm wrong I will apologize now because this has been a bit difficult to follow completely.

Lisa after you do what Shawn is suggesting why don't you take pictures of Deans crossovers trying to get a good picture of how the wires are connected to the crossovers and how both crossovers are wired themselves.

mike[]