What Behringer DEQ2496 Says About My Room - (pic)

[Deang]

"Who has trachorns like you and just made an offer to buy Rocketmans' Tweeter Attenuators about a week ago."

Chris (Rocketman) isn't just running Trachorns -- he's also running Beyma CP-25 tweeters. When he bought the networks from me I didn't know he was running those tweeters. After he got the networks he complained that the tweeters were spitting. I talked him into attenuating them, and after doing so he reported back that he was happy with the result. He just sold the networks to "Sheltie Dave" so he could try active filtering/triamping. In my system, I eventually dumped the Beymas in favor of BECs new tweet. Even attenuated, I just couldn't get the Beymas to sound "right" to my ears. Later, I revisited the issue and found that when I crossed them higher they took on a whole new character -- they've been in the system ever since.

"Dean - what are the yellow caps in that top pic?..."

The capacitor in that part of the circuit is 40uF. My standard build uses a single Dayton Audio in that spot. This is what you have, though it is wrapped in cold shrink tape. Sometimes, a person wants me to up the quality of the cap there, and for the longest time I couldn't find a high quality 40uF, so I used two 20uF Auricaps in parallel. I now use a 40uF AudioCap PPMF when someone asks me to do it.

"And why do some crossovers have just 2 caps and some have a gaggle?..."

http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/crossover/xoverfaqs.html

"...What makes the difference in deciding how many caps one gets..."

It's a combination of what the driver parameters allow you to do and simple choice, largely determined by personal preference. It's a balancing act -- juggling the performance parameters around for the subjectively best sound. The higher the order of the filter section the more attenuation applied to the driver (steeper roll off), and the less overlap between the drivers. I prefer the sound of first order filters, and in my present configuration have given up some power handling and smoothness of response in exchange for hair trigger dynamics and a high slam factor at low to moderate listening levels.

"...and do you consider the type of horn model when choosing a network design?"

I really only build for stock Klipsch speakers, and I build for those what I personally believe works best. I know the network I sell works good with the stock drivers and the Trachorn, but as far as other drivers and tweeters go I can't say.

"... I know you like those v-caps and am curious as to what they do for the high end?"

I like them in the early Klipsch networks with the 1st order tweeter sections (Type A, B, E). A paper in oil richness with much of the clarity of the better film types. Devoid of grain.

I'm still struggling with fixing my highs with this DEQ. If I take down the tweeter section (which IS my problem I believe)... it seems to lose some detail. A frustrating trade off that I think I'm going to have to accept.

I think you should change your tweeters. Your ears hate them.

[meagain]

I just find it hard to understand that what one crossover might sound with trachorns and beymas - would sound the same with stock khorn horns. For instance, I've read many many posts saying they Beymas sound more chilled out, etc. I just have a hard time linking the stock horns to these VERY different horns. And there is some confusion for me Dean as to your crossovers because it seems each and every picture I've seen shows a difference.

I was just thinking this particular solen didn't like my tweeters and wondering - since many report different sonics from different caps (harsh/not harsh/smoother, etc) that perhaps a different brand or so would take the edge off.

I have a question.... why do 'new' crossovers only come with a squawker attenuator? Why don't they also have a tap adjuster for the tweeter also? Is it not technically possible? I think that would be a nice feature!

So my tweeters are too hot. And it's not my room which has been shoved down my throat for so long (same with amp improvements, etc).... It all boiled down to the tweeters being ridiculous. I still find it hard to fathom more people don't have this issue. Or - Maybe they do cuz when I visit other forums, there's a boatload of people who find them harsh/bright.

So Dean - tell me how this L-Pad thing works? Does it suck down the ENTIRE tweeter section evenly across the board? Like - my curve would remain as is - but just go down a bunch? And, how many db can I make it go down? I have to figure out if this would work better than the DEQ.

And taps 5/2 are way better for us here. I fought going to 4/x and shouldn't have been talked into it. I wish 4/0 functioned though. Hey Dean! Would that other attenuation gadget work for me? Not the 3619?? but the other one that has different db numbers?

[meagain]

In my system, I eventually dumped the Beymas in favor of BECs new tweet. Even attenuated, I just couldn't get the Beymas to sound "right" to my ears. Later, I revisited the issue and found that when I crossed them higher they took on a whole new character -- they've been in the system ever since. OK. But you still listened to my crossovers with Beymas!

"... I know you like those v-caps and am curious as to what they do for the high end?"

I like them in the early Klipsch networks with the 1st order tweeter sections (Type A, B, E). A paper in oil richness with much of the clarity of the better film types. Devoid of grain. Correct me if I'm wrong... those V-caps are more along the lines of the shiney Jensens found in my Smilin' Cornwalls? See - those Cornwalls shocked the heck out of us in the high end and I need to relisten - but maybe that's what I like? We could crank the heck out of them with cymbals, etc. all over the place and not get fatigue. More comfy cozy, but I don't recall their clarity, etc. We just thought we liked those tweeters. My stock Corns didn't bring that to the table. (course, the stock Corns' bass is better than the Jensen Corns - but that's another story). Do you think those types of caps would warm things up without losing detail for us?

I'm still struggling with fixing my highs with this DEQ. If I take down the tweeter section (which IS my problem I believe)... it seems to lose some detail. A frustrating trade off that I think I'm going to have to accept.

I think you should change your tweeters. Your ears hate them.

Well! At least they show themselves on the graph so is not the proof in the pudding here? And - what would we change the tweeters 'to'?

[sfogg]

" Does it suck down the ENTIRE tweeter section evenly across the board? Like - my curve would remain as is - but just go down a bunch? And, how many db can I make it go down? I have to figure out if this would work better than the DEQ."

If you want to just turn down the entire tweeters range you can do that in the EQ too. The settings I recommended were to tame the peak in the tweeters response to make it flatter.

If you just want to dial it all down turn off the PEQ and set every graphic EQ from 6k and up to the same setting of -3 or -6dB or however much you want to dial down the entire tweeter.

BTW... as far as the 'detailed but bright', ' not detailed by smooth' thing. You likely can't have it both ways. And overly bright system some hear as 'more detailed'. So when the high end is dialed down they think they 'lost detail.'

Shawn

[meagain]

I know - chill out the tweeter - lose something I'd like to keep in that area. Chill down the tweeter - the vocal is altered cuz while it's midrangey, that tweeter is blended into that vocal piece to present itself as a whole? Taking a bit away seems to alter something I like. For instance - brushes on a drum are affected. Their stay on the drum head can be as long or as short depending on what tiny setting I do. I'd like to have them as recorded ideally. And if I tweek something in the bass or middle (that technically I should do) - a vocal can sound more echoey or have a tad bit of megaphoneish flavor. Or, sometimes I seem to lose the air/space/atmospher/fill room feeling. What a pickle! I'll bet anything I go back to the original setting I made with just putting a peq at that tweeter hump but maybe not go down to -8 just to remove or soften the physical buzzing on my eardrum when it hits certain frequencies. Beyond that, I think I'm screwed.

And the auto-eq doesn't work for me which is unfortunate. Gives me crazy suggestions. But I seem to be doing it properly. I've not given up on that part yet.

[sheltie dave]

Meagain, it seems you want to take the path of volume control in your work to tame the K77 tweeter. Keep in mind your equalizer will add or subtract decibels at the fixed frequencies you select to alter, but it will not alter the pitch, tonality, or harmonics that also go into the "piercing screech" you two perceive and detest. No matter the volume, it will still be there.

Room treatments will help alter some to many of the harmonics, nodes, and modes that roost in your room.

The trachorns, Beymas, 2404s, Eminence, and BEC tweets and mids all change the propogation pathway for the soundwaves, and so influence the tonality you perceive.

You have figured out the one actual problem, with your mids being out of phase, so you may consider letting things rest for a while. Carl and I(and others) will be hosting a Battle of the Amps in earliest August, and that may be a good time for you to make a visit and hear differing setups. Between four/five of us, we have almost the complete gamut of Klipsch, tube and solid state, stock to highly modded and rodded, chopped, slammed, and Frenched, all served with expresso before breakfast.

BTW, I have three xovers of Dean's through trades(they were in the traded speakers,) and I picked up the ALK Jrs to replace the fourty year old 1-RB xovers on the '63 Khorns. This is the first speaker mod I will do in three years. All are magnificent productions, and do the Klipsch proud. I have great confidence in Dean, Al, John, and Bob, and it's great we have selfless individuals who spend vast time trying to squeeze the best sound out of a great speaker line.

[meagain]

(Actually, per the last time I checked phase with a clearer head - I determined they were OK after all. At least if one driver IS out of phase from another - I can't find it).

IDK - If you look at the chart for the individual speakers and combined - the tweeter section is way up there. Seems to me, pulling down the db's there will balance it out. I don't think we, dislike the tone, etc. of it - it's just too 'leap out and hit you in the head'.

IDK about harmonics/pitch, etc. but the tweeters do seem to be in their own little orbit. Like they don't "go" with the rest of the speakers sometimes. And I think that's cuz they're just too damn loud. I 'think'. I just have an internal struggle with taking them down at the risk of losing the cool little things that I DO like that don't hurt me. I hate being in a position to make such a trade off cuz I want it all. But life's a biatch and something's gotta go. The art in it will be lessening that trade off as much as possible.

[Deang]

I just find it hard to understand that what one crossover might sound with trachorns and beymas - would sound the same with stock khorn horns.

Tough sentence there, I'm having trouble figuring out what you're trying to say.

For instance, I've read many many posts saying they Beymas sound more chilled out, etc.

When attenuated properly, it sounds more laid back than the phenolic loaded K-77 or BEC. Naturally, left unattenuated at the lower crossover points it sounds spitty and overbearing.

I just have a hard time linking the stock horns to these VERY different horns.

The differences lie mostly in dispersion and distortion. Trachorn users typically find they have to knock the midrange down a dB or two. You can go to Al's site to see the plot comparing FR of three different horns with the K-55-V.

And there is some confusion for me Dean as to your crossovers because it seems each and every picture I've seen shows a difference.

I build all different types. I still build Type A's, Type AA's, and Type B's. I build some with one kind of cap and others with another. I build some with a simple bandpass section for the squawker, and some without. Some I build using the P-trap. Most want the ALKJr. I have a standard build, but also provide an upgrade option for the primary cap and tweeter section. How I make recommendations and decisions is based on the input I get from the customer. I've said this many times, there is no "perfect" network. I try to get to people what I think will work best for their listening tastes, habits, and music. In your case, since you were new and didn't know which way to go -- I sent you two sets of networks to help you understand the differences involved.

I was just thinking this particular solen didn't like my tweeters and wondering - since many report different sonics from different caps (harsh/not harsh/smoother, etc) that perhaps a different brand or so would take the edge off.

Those Solens are great caps and you need to get that crap out of your head -- it's pure nonsense. Like Erik told you before, caps are like seasoning used to flavor your food. The network circuit, drivers, and horns carry 90% of the signature. No capacitor made offers a higher level of transparency and cleanliness than a film and tin foil. I don't want to hear anymore bitching about those caps!! You want the edge off? Something tells me you won't have enough edge off until you move back to cones. If I built you some Jensen loaded Type AA's, you would like the richness, and though the lower level of detail would initially seem appealing -- you would grow weary of it.

I have a question.... why do 'new' crossovers only come with a squawker attenuator? Why don't they also have a tap adjuster for the tweeter also? Is it not technically possible? I think that would be a nice feature!

Most, and I'm talking 19 out of 20 here (literally) -- prefer the slightly tipped up treble. If I pad the tweeter, and someone wants more output, the pad has to be removed. What makes more sense from a business standpoint: to have to add the occasional L-pad (or make the recommendation of using an aftermarket attenuator like Al's) -- or spending a 1/4 of my bench time removing L-pads for people who think I emasculated the highs?

I've built several networks with two autoformers on each board: One for the squawker and one for the tweeter. There isn't any reason to do that anymore: Al's attenuators are a superior solution and costs less than what I was charging people to do the mod.

So my tweeters are too hot. And it's not my room which has been shoved down my throat for so long (same with amp improvements, etc).... It all boiled down to the tweeters being ridiculous. I still find it hard to fathom more people don't have this issue. Or - Maybe they do cuz when I visit other forums, there's a boatload of people who find them harsh/bright.

Many people don't like the sound of horns -- it's just that simple. Let's see, is there any Klipsch speaker you've bought that you actually like? Think about it.

So Dean - tell me how this L-Pad thing works? Does it suck down the ENTIRE tweeter section evenly across the board?

Yep, that's how it works.

Would that other attenuation gadget work for me? Not the 3619?? but the other one that has different db numbers?

You gain a useable setting but lose another. Doesn't matter, it wouldn't solve your problem anyway.

OK. But you still listened to my crossovers with Beymas!

Yes I did, but I was running another set of autoformers for the Beymas.

Correct me if I'm wrong... those V-caps are more along the lines of the shiney Jensens found in my Smilin' Cornwalls?

Yes and no.

Well! At least they show themselves on the graph so is not the proof in the pudding here? And - what would we change the tweeters 'to'?

Personally, I think you should return the networks to me for a full refund, load the stock networks back up -- and sell them -- along with all of the other Klipsch speakers you bought. Then buy yourself a nice set of RF-83's and a RSW-15.

[meagain]

I just find it hard to understand that what one crossover might sound with trachorns and beymas - would sound the same with stock khorn horns.

Tough sentence there, I'm having trouble figuring out what you're trying to say. Meaning, if a xover sounds good thru Beymas, I have a hard time assuming they'd sound as good thru stock tweeters. Though I've never heard them.

For instance, I've read many many posts saying they Beymas sound more chilled out, etc.

When attenuated properly, it sounds more laid back than the phenolic loaded K-77 or BEC. See?

Many people don't like the sound of horns -- it's just that simple. Let's see, is there any Klipsch speaker you've bought that you actually like? Think about it. Of course I do! The Jensen Cornwall high end sounds great. And I like the midrange from the big horn (or at least not the very high parts). It's wonderful.

OK. But you still listened to my crossovers with Beymas!

Yes I did, but I was running another set of autoformers for the Beymas.

Correct me if I'm wrong... those V-caps are more along the lines of the shiney Jensens found in my Smilin' Cornwalls?

Yes and no.

Well! At least they show themselves on the graph so is not the proof in the pudding here? And - what would we change the tweeters 'to'?

Personally, I think you should return the networks to me for a full refund, load the stock networks back up -- and sell them -- along with all of the other Klipsch speakers you bought. Then buy yourself a nice set of RF-83's and a RSW-15. No thanks. Didn't care for the RF-7's so it's likely I won't care for the RF-83's. Dean, I have a real problem here and it's more than all the simple answers of 1) new xovers, 2) new cd player, 3) my amp is sh*t - get tubes, 4) get a magical preamp, 5) tap settings, 6) my room is bad, 7) we don't like horns. 2 of the above gave me a big bang. The others seem like layers that are building upon each other in a more subtle way to create goodness in most.

As soon as I posted the graph, people described to a T what I AND my husband are hearing. Perfectly. It's a 'real' issue that we both agree 100% on (tho' him moreso if you can believe that).

Trust me, if you came over - I believe you'd have a problem with it as well. So yes, I'm grasping. If you're saying these solens are the best cap for my situation, then there's nothing I can do about that unless I want to buy my own and try them myself - or I'm going to have to at some point accept it and ignore cap posts. Then I have to make this DEQ work and I did make headway today. Control freek that I might be, I think the DEQ will afford me more autonomy than the L-Pads, but I'll certainly let you know if that changes!

Boo! LOL

[Deang]

I know more about your ears than I did 6 months ago. We talked a lot and traded a good deal of email, but you were new to the game and it was hard for me to get a good handle on what would work best for you -- the main reason I sent you two sets of networks. I really want those networks back -- I need to check them out. In the end, it will make us both feel better. Just to reduce your stress it might be best just to pull the Solens..

[sheltie dave]

Meagain, I would reccomend a real pristine set of Magnaplanar electrostatic planar speakers and a couple of the new Klipsch THX subs like Colter's. You will have the killer transparent mids and highs WITHOUT the stabbing ear gouging tweeters, and superior bass management - and it will be much more room friendly.

As long as you are dealing with any of the Klipsch line, you will be encountering difficulty sidestepping the horn tweeters.

It's like an eleven step program. You could run with a twelve stepper, but you have already posted about a problem...or two.[]

To wit: you have purchased a set of NOSValves monobloc VRDs, a JuicyMusic Peach preamp, a Behringer RTA, a Behringer equalizer, and multiple sets of custom designed crossovers. None of the above have proved to significantly remedy your situation. Guidance from many of the best minds on the forum, in conjunction with the above, have failed.

You can move on, sell the gear you have purchased for no loss(mainly to Corvette,)and get into stuff that is infinitely more forgiving and managable. Let the folks who have bent over backwards trying to please and help you move on to other issues as well. Like my phsychiatrist sister-in-law said a few years ago, if it is not working for you, admit it , leave it, and move on.

Lisa ne t'aime pas Klipsch tweeters, n'est pas?

[meagain]

Sheltie Dave - []

You are probably right on the Planars & sub. I'm sure it would sound great.

You are wrong that I've purchased multiple sets of crossovers. I bought one set. I have listened to a low scale tin can version.

You are wrong that none of my additions significantly helped. The xovers & Jolida CDP were significant. The rest.... well...

Nope - I won't be selling my Khorns.

I think there will be an "ignore button" with the new software upgrade. Good news for you!

[meagain]

I know more about your ears than I did 6 months ago. We talked a lot and traded a good deal of email, but you were new to the game and it was hard for me to get a good handle on what would work best for you -- the main reason I sent you two sets of networks. I really want those networks back -- I need to check them out. In the end, it will make us both feel better. Just to reduce your stress it might be best just to pull the Solens..

I'm makeing a bit of progress now with this gadget. I don't like the concept of being without those crossovers so it's going to be a last resort. But if my major issue resurfaces - yup.

[sheltie dave]

Reading through your last post(Meagain,) you said your "Jensen Cornwall high end" is better sounding. IF you are not using your Cornwalls, pull the backs, desolder the tweets, and stick them in the Khorns. Problem solved in under twenty minutes.

Now if you actually have Jensen tweeters in your Corns, then either they were replaced, or they are old, old, old, and naturally roll off somewhere between 16 to 18.5 kHz. I have one in a Karlsen, two in Jensens, and a spare for the shorty. The driver/lens is different than the t35/K77 that Klipsch uses, and this will account for much of the noted difference in sound - there is a 10+ dB difference. The Klipsch runs hot to about 20 KHz, the Jensen doesn't.

All these equipment suggestions and layers of advice are what many people have gone through for years, Lisa. In your rush to reach the best possible sound, you are also badgering people who have provided good advice and a platform to make grounded, fact-based decisions as your system evolves. You have compressed a ten, twenty, or even thirty year maturation process into a matter of months.

If I didn't have exposure to much of the gear(amps, preamps, crossovers, and speakers) you have purchased in the last few months, your posts detailing all the "problems" would lead me to avoid EVERYTHING in your arsenal from fear of repetition. As you continue down this path, please try to distinguish your anamolous artifact and situation from the hundreds of lurkers, forum members, and Klipsch owners who are happy, or happily modifying, their speakers/systems.

[meagain]

Reading through your last post(Meagain,) you said your "Jensen Cornwall high end" is better sounding. IF you are not using your Cornwalls, pull the backs, desolder the tweets, and stick them in the Khorns. Problem solved in under twenty minutes.

Now if you actually have Jensen tweeters in your Corns, then either they were replaced, or they are old, old, old, and naturally roll off somewhere between 16 to 18.5 kHz. I have one in a Karlsen, two in Jensens, and a spare for the shorty. The driver/lens is different than the t35/K77 that Klipsch uses, and this will account for much of the noted difference in sound - there is a 10+ dB difference. The Klipsch runs hot to about 20 KHz, the Jensen doesn't.

No no. I bought these Cornwalls with the stock horns. They have crossovers from Dean with shiney Jensen caps. They have round K-77's. We had no problem with the highs in these speaks.

OH! One thing about these cornwalls is the horns are damped with clay. I have no idea why I keep forgetting to do my khorns. I've yet to read ANY post where someone didn't say it offered an improvement. Minimally, it's an easy and cheap try.

All these equipment suggestions and layers of advice are what many people have gone through for years, Lisa. In your rush to reach the best possible sound, you are also badgering people who have provided good advice and a platform to make grounded, fact-based decisions as your system evolves. You have compressed a ten, twenty, or even thirty year maturation process into a matter of months.

If I didn't have exposure to much of the gear(amps, preamps, crossovers, and speakers) you have purchased in the last few months, your posts detailing all the "problems" would lead me to avoid EVERYTHING in your arsenal from fear of repetition. As you continue down this path, please try to distinguish your anamolous artifact and situation from the hundreds of lurkers, forum members, and Klipsch owners who are happy, or happily modifying, their speakers/systems.

I hope they are semi-intelligent enough to see what is clear. I have harshness/brightness/piercing in certain frequencies and trying to fix it. Pertty simple.

You are MORE than welcome to ignore me as is anyone else. In fact, I'd prefer you did.

[Deang]

Dave, her reference to "Jensen" isn't to the tweeters but to the capacitors in her Type B networks. Paper in oils have a higher resitive element than the polypropylene types, and tend to have a more laid back and softer presentation (comparatively speaking).

I'm makeing a bit of progress now with this gadget. I don't like the concept of being without those crossovers so it's going to be a last resort. But if my major issue resurfaces - yup.

I still think there was a stray wire, maybe something like a single little piece that fell loose when you guys reterminated all of your wiring -- and found it's way onto the board in the area of the barrier strip. I think when moved through vibration it was shorting out the woofer. Seems like since you started moving things around and swapping the networks back and forth it's stopped.

The manual for the Behringer isn't very user friendly, I had to live in mine for two or three days before things started to sink in. Use the autoEQ, and after it's finished -- study the display to see what it's correcting. What I would do is use the results as a baseline, and then start tweeking the settings manually. Anything that it applied extreme correction to, I would move up or bring down a couple of dB to get things a bit closer together.

I would still just use the PEQ for the treble, and do it the way Shawn advised, and create a notch the inverse of the bump. Yes, you will lose some detail -- but the same detail you enjoy is increasing the wince factor. Knock it down a couple of dB, and let the ear/brain mechanism get used to the adjustment.

[Deang]

Dave's a good guy Lisa. Like some others, he thinks maybe you should consider the possibility that Heritage isn't your cup of tea. Don't take it personally.

What are the chances of getting the Klipschorns out of that room -- is that the only place you have to put them? When I had mine positioned that way I thought the sound was unlistenable. It took me all of about 3 hours to realize I was going to have to build false corners for them.

[meagain]

Dave, her reference to "Jensen" isn't to the tweeters but to the capacitors in her Type B networks. Paper in oils have a higher resitive element than the polypropylene types, and tend to have a more laid back and softer presentation (comparitively speaking).

This is why I ask about caps alot. NOT because I think Dean's xovers are F'd up. I love what they brought to me (when I got them to work). This is exactly where I started up on this train. When I plugged those Cornwalls in, expecting them to be harsh (same tweet), and finding them quite comfy cozy and not having the khorn high issues - I got to thinking. I learned alot from them. My natural inclination was to understand why these can handle stuff the khorns couldn't so I had to look at the crossover caps in them. And I wondered if a similarily vibed cap like the shiney Jensens would bring the same to the table or at least 'help'. That's all. I simply felt there might very well be something to the cap issue - and them being akin to tubes in that way.

They're currently used as surrounds & I need to haul them out for a relisten to check detail there as when we listened before - we only noticed their better ability to handle volume, highs, and alot of 'stuff' going on at once and still have nice instrument separation. Better than khorns. Which I think is ***-backwards to what's supposed to happen.

I'm makeing a bit of progress now with this gadget. I don't like the concept of being without those crossovers so it's going to be a last resort. But if my major issue resurfaces - yup.

I still think there was a stray wire, maybe something like a single little piece that fell loose when you guys reterminated all of your wiring -- and found it's way onto the board in the area of the barrier strip. I think when moved through vibration it was shorting out the woofer. Seems like since you started moving things around and swapping the networks back and forth it's stopped. I agree. Maybe something cracked in shipping that I can't visibly see. Or a cold solder? It just makes sense especially when they didn't work immediately upon install for a few days. Then magically they work when I put them in one last try. I know the last time things 'broke' I was playing something fairly bombastic at loud levels. It comes goes on it's own. Then when I switched networks between speakers - I'm now having the longest 'good' run I've had. Which makes me think the physical move 'fixed something'. It's the only thing that makes sense to me when I add it up. Maybe some microscopic 1/2-way hairline fracture in the chain. But my luck if I sent them to you, your gadgets/ears won't find it cuz it'll be in 'good' mode.

The manual for the Behringer isn't very user friendly, I had to live in mine for two or three days before things started to sink in. Use the autoEQ, and after it's finished -- study the display to see what it's correcting. What I would do is use the results as a baseline, and then start tweeking the settings manually. Anything that it applied extreme correction to, I would move up or bring down a couple of dB to get things a bit closer together. The autoEQ doesn't work for me which is sad cuz Mike says it does a pretty good job. Does things I don't like. He asked for pictures and I'm going to do that today.

I would still just use the PEQ for the treble, and do it the way Shawn advised, and create a notch the inverse of the bump. Yes, you will lose some detail -- but the same detail you enjoy is increasing the wince factor. Knock it down a couple of dB, and let the ear/brain mechanism get used to the adjustment. Yep. I have to be very pristinely precise about it but I think I'm getting there. -8 or so is too much, etc.

[meagain]

Dave's a good guy Lisa. Like some others, he thinks maybe you should consider the possibility that Heritage isn't your cup of tea. Don't take it personally.

What are the chances of getting the Klipschorns out of that room -- is that the only place you have to put them? When I had mine positioned that way I thought the sound was unlistenable. It took me all of about 3 hours to realize I was going to have to build false corners for them.

I'm sure there's better speaks out there. For a price. For instance, I heard Smilin's Epiphany 12's and the highs were just wonderful. Crystal clear in comparison. Those are $12-15k and have bass issues (IMO). I do think we like horns OK. No problem with the Squawker sound. I like the breathyness and 'real' aspect.

AND - for the record (and I think if anyone's paying attention, you'll find posts saying how much I love Dean's xovers & what they brought to the table)... I'll say it again here. It was my biggest bang for the buck and everything else was just a wimper (except my modded Jolida JD-100 CDP which I love!). The xover addition was remarkable. Heard things we NEVER even knew was in the recordings. We also LOVE our khorns. It's sounding real good to us. Except the high piece. Which is actually probably more pronounced cuz the rest of it does sound so good. Sort of like if you put granite counters in the kitchen - the sink now looks WAY worse than it did.

About room - we toed the khorns, and toed the horn section only. Plus ran the DEQ on each indiv. speaker with mic on it. Nothing improved. But yes, we know overall we need to move them. I have a plan to flip things and widen them to about ?? 16-17 feet, but then they fire into a wall 13' away which I don't think is good either? Either way, the TV is in front of a window and not acceptable. We planned to do this a few weeks ago as my rule was to fix it before things leafed out - but got locked into fixing the sound where they were first. Which is actually rather stupid.

[Deang]

"No problem with the Squawker sound. I like the breathyness and 'real' aspect."

Bingo. That's exactly why I stay with them -- they simply sound less like "speakers".

There's nothing stupid about you're doing. You're working out issues with current placement. Mosty, you're learning a ton of stuff that will help you get better sound for the rest of your life -- no matter where you put them.