meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 ignore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 ignore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Lisa Your RTA Range is set at 60db where as before you had it set on 30db so the display is going to look smoother. RTA Menu Page 1 or 2 you can set the range with the small lower Data Wheel. It would be best if you displayed in a 30 db or even 15 db range for the best resolution. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 now on 30db Rick - Here's the right speak with mic 36" away. Left turned off. Tweeter removed. Tap 5/2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 The same test with the tweeter attached is the 2nd picture on page 4. EDIT: Is it weird that the Squawk goes to around 8k? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardhead Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 All you have to do to balance your Klipschorns overall is to lower the volume of the K-77-M's to match the volume of the mid-range. That will get rid of the piercing issue. It works; I've done it--several times. Then you need to change the squawker-tweeter setting on the crossovers to raise or lower the efficiency of the mid-range/HF to match to woofer output. That will take care of the overall balance of your speakers, but something tells me you're not going to do that. The woofer problem is most likely setup/room related or non-matching woofers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Guys, Dean just called me and asked that I look at this thread. Man! All this shows me as how deep into the twilight zone you can get when you start fooling with acoustic measurments! I see several mistakes being made. Frst off, forget complelely about sitting the mike at the sweet spot. Put it 1 meter in front of 1 speaker and turn the others off! Turn the level up as loud as you can stand it. If you move the mike away from the speaker you are getting into "far field" measurments and it is meaningless! All you can do is meassure the speaker. I don't know that particular RTA, but I see average levels of 60 and 65 dB on the left of the screen, I would take the measurements at at least 90 db SPL. Below that you are measuring ambient noise. All the sounds in your house are getting into the mix. You will be hearing outside wind noise, cars going by and even your central air or heating system in there! You need to overwhelm all that with a high level of pink noise. If you really what to know what each horn is doing, ram the mike right into the mouth of the horn. Another big point, do NOT adjust your equalizer to equalize each speaker seperately. Your stereo image will go straight to h___! Adjust each speaker for a flat response, one at a time, then set the equalizer so that BOTH channels are identical and midway between the two adjustments! Set it for the average of both channels. AGAIN: Forget the listening chair. You can't compensate for that. Another point. If you are looking for phasing errors between woofer and squawker you will need to look for very tiny glitches near the crossover. It may be so sharp it will fall between two bars on your RTA display! The tweeter phasing is meaningless. The wavelength at 6 KHz is about 2 inches. This means that switching the tweeter phasing 180 degrees is the same as moving the tweeter 1 inch back or forward! It's already neary a foot in front of the squawker driver! The driver interaction is such that no matter how you hook it the response and phase will be different at every place in the room. That's why you have to keep the mike close to the speaker! It's also why I advocate extreme-slope networks! AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Then you need to change the squawker-tweeter setting on the crossovers to raise or lower the efficiency of the mid-range/HF to match to woofer output. That will take care of the overall balance of your speakers, but something tells me you're not going to do that. The woofer problem is most likely setup/room related or non-matching woofers. Oh for sure I'm going to try to tweak it. There's only so much I can do to the crossovers. Namely, nothing - or reduce the squawker even more which I think would be going in the wrong direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I was just noticing a discrepancy between the schematics of ALK Srs and Jrs. The drawing of the Jr has the squaker hooked up as in the As and AAs despite the introduction of an inductor in the signal path which ,theoretically will shift phase 180 degrees. Again, when I reversed the connections on my faux Jrs from the schematic, the results were better. After concluding that, I have used the inverted hook-up as shown in the ALK Sr schematic. This is just my aural observation, I do not claim to be an expert, just a hobbiest Shawn, Lisa's earlier post of the right speaker alone on page 5 and the one above. Rick The ALKSr has a phase reversal because it's second order on the squawker. The ALKJr is first order, so connectivity is of course reversed. It's first order -- phase perfect! If you flip the leads, you're making it the same as the ALK, which is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Al - If you're suggesting a "do over", that means I need to have a drink. OK, so you're saying now only test 1 meter away BUT at very loud levels. What do you feel is important that I test? I.e.; should I isolate and test the individual drivers? Or pass on that and just do each individual overall speaker at 1 meter with blazing loud pink? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 You can't just disconnect drivers from the network and take measurements. I alluded to this earlier. You have to terminate the sections of the filter NOT being measured with resistors that simulate the load of the drivers you are disconnecting. IOW's, if you want to measure the woofer, you disconnect the squawker and put a 15 ohm resistor across the squawker terminals, and an 8 ohm resistor across the tweeter terminals. If you want to measure the midrange, you have to put an 8 ohm resistor across the woofer terminals and 8 ohm resistor across the tweeter terminals ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 90.4 db full monty. Tap 5/2. Right khorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 90.4 db full monty. Taps 5/2. Mic 36" away. Left khorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Al - Better? Looks the same as before to me, but I guess the loudness eliminates other crapola. EDIT: Anyone venture to guess why that one speaker has that crazy drop at 315? I imagine if I could zoom in on that area - it would appear quite hellish. The other speaker doesn't have this. I wonder what would happen if I switched the crossovers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Al, "If you move the mike away from the speaker you are getting into "far field" measurments and it is meaningless!" Except for the minor point of what she hears is the far field response, not near field. "but I see average levels of 60 and 65 dB on the left of the screen, I would take the measurements at at least 90 db SPL." Those levels are -60dB... just related to 0dB. Not actual SPL level. SPL doesn't decrease as you go up the scale on a RTA. It is no different then what the SD375 shows...relative levels unless you actually go and calibrate it to get a good main level. But you are right that she needs to be far enough above the noise level in the room to hear what is happening. "AGAIN: Forget the listening chair. You can't compensate for that." Yes, you can. That is the whole point of what tuning a system to the room is about. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 " Al - If you're suggesting a "do over", that means I need to have a drink. " No, you don't need to 'do over' anything. Fix the overly hot tweeters. Literally... 2 minutes of work on the EQ (compared to how many days/weeks/months complaining about this?) and you might actually enjoy your system for a change.... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Lisa, Shawn indicated earlier that it was due to floor bounce, related to the height of your microphone placement. Hey Craig -- I didn't hear the stock setup over the weekend, but it's not like I haven't heard stock Heritage before! Heck, I've heard mine with just about every stock driver/network combination there is. I never said the Heritage signature sounded bad to me (which it doesn't), only a general description of what it sounds like, and that some people really just don't care for it all that much (which is true). "One way is not better then the other JUST DIFFERENT." I agree that Heritage with good stuff behind it sounds good, but it sounds cleaner, smoother, and more open (less constricted) with the Trachorns and different tweeters. I've never said anything different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Shawn, you have a PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 ", Shawn indicated earlier that it was due to floor bounce, related to the height of your microphone placement." Might be... her mic height is pretty close to the right height to cause that. Anyhow, it isn't there at her listening positon (where she actually listens from) so I wouldn't sweat it. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 For comparison to the above. Duplicate test but switched crossovers. LEFT KHORN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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