meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Dean - 4 and "0"? Not X? Mike told me to try 4/0 which he agreed seemed counter-productive to what I hear but it made some sense to me. Just been busy. OK - will do 4/0 now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 OOOPS! The above left/right pics are tap 4/x NOT 5/2! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Same EQ suggestions as before. After you do that remeasure and see how it sounds and looks. Close up the tweeter has better extension (a little flatter.. though that may just be a difference in measurement position/dispersion) then your listening position measurement but it is still way to hot. As a test dial it down through EQ as suggested before. Spend some time listening to that and see if that is an improvement to your ears or not and then report back. If you like it you can keep the EQ in the system fulltime or dial down the tweeter with an autoformer/L-Pad..etc..etc. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Left khorn. Tap 5/2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Mike is thinking what I'm thinking, but I'm not going to say anything until you make the switch and measure. You have to follow Shawn's lead here, he's one of the most experienced with this stuff. We need to take as much of the room as possible out of the equation right now -- we want to know what the speakers are doing. So, get the mic up close. How do you have the microphone situated? What are you using to hold the microphone where you want it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Left Khorn. Tap 4/0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 How do you have the microphone situated? What are you using to hold the microphone where you want it? The mic is exactly 36" from the grill. On a good quality mic stand (boom type). Mic is the dedicated mic for the behringer. It is pointing to the ceiling. It's omni-directional or something. Vertically, it's placed between tweet/squawk as best I can tell. I have extremely good aim/eye and didn't feel the need to bring out the level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Better. Is the mike up close to the speaker, about a meter away? 300Hz suckout. I have that too. Klipschorns on the short wall have major problems summing the bass response properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 How do you have the microphone situated? What are you using to hold the microphone where you want it? The mic is exactly 36" from the grill. On a good quality mic stand (boom type). Mic is the dedicated mic for the behringer. It is pointing to the ceiling. It's omni-directional or something. Vertically, it's placed between tweet/squawk as best I can tell. I have extremely good aim/eye and didn't feel the need to bring out the level. So, you've been working with Mike offline? That's good, he's another one that has his act together. Do the other speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 You think it's better? I double clicked on both 5/2 and 4/0 to put them both on my screen and I'm not seeing any if much difference. Where do you see the improvement? The bars seem to go to the same places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 You're right, I'm wrong. I guess it was an optical delusion. Hmmm. I don't know what to think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 So, you've been working with Mike offline? That's good, he's another one that has his act together. I'll second that about Mike. He's been over a couple times and been a treasure trove of information and in general, eager helpfulness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Right khorn. Tap 5/2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Right khorn. Taps 4/0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 The left/right are very very different from each other. No matter what tap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 When did you get Chorus II's? Also, are these the khorns that aren't perfectly sealed into the corners? One other comment...the exit for the khorn bass bin shoots out the sides of the speakers along the side walls. So it almost makes sense to see a 300Hz suckout because the higher frequencies aren't going to turn the corner at the mouth of the bass bin very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Chorus II's - yesterday. Amazing deal. Khorns are snug in corners with the foam tube stuff added. The 300 suckout is different between speakers. But i'm not sure I'm concerned about that piece right now. I quess the questions are: 1) are my speakers messed up? 2) are my crossovers confused? 3) which tap setting should I go with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 When you are playing each test left and right are you playing them at the same volume level? It looks like you are based on the tweeters output but I want to be sure about that. Are you moving the mics position when you switch left to right? The left K'Horn tap 4/0 looks pretty good *except* for the hot tweeter. That is one problem. The right K'Horn also has the hot tweeter so that problem is common to both and needs to be addressed. L-Pad/autoformer/EQ...etc...etc.. The right K'Horn looks worse from about 500hz and down too so something isn't right there either. It might just be the room... but.... New tests to try.... Make a measurement from the middle of the room equal distance to both speakers with each speaker playing pink noise alone, then another with each speaker playing pink noise together. Basically I want to see what the composite of both speakers looks like together from a position equal distance from both and also measurements of each speaker on its own to try and see what the room is doing. Don't worry about changing tap settings or anything like that right now. Related tests to try...... do you have a CD with different frequency tones on it? If so try the following... Play a 1000hz tone in both speakers. Stand about in the middle of the room facing the K'Horns and listen to the tone. Does it appear to be coming from directly in front of you or does it sound diffuse and sound more like it is surrounding you. Play a 100hz tone and answer the same question. If you need to know what kind of difference I'm talking about here as a test reverse the speaker connections on one of your amps to intentionally throw a speaker out of phase and listen to how the pink noise changes in tone and imaging when played back through both speakers and you centered between them. What I'm wondering is if perhaps the right woofer or squawker is out of phase and that is contributing to the poor response from 500hz and down. Another test you could try if you don't have test tones is just to reverse the phase to the right woofer and remeasure the right speaker again to see how its FR looks then. (Note: this is just a test... you could have just thrown the woofers out of phase L to R but we are just doing this to see how right responds to the change) Another test to maybe try is just hooking your right amp directly to the right woofer alone and playing/measuring pink noise. (eliminates possible out of phase interference from the squawker as the problem... leave room and/or bad woofer) Report back on those and it will show the next step to take... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Dean, "300Hz suckout. I have that too. Klipschorns on the short wall have major problems summing the bass response properly." Her earlier listening position measurements didn't show that suckout so I wouldn't worry about that one. It might just be a comb filtering artifact from the two different sources of that sound. (Each side of the bass horn) If you stick the mic in one side of the bass horn do you still see that suckout? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 When you are playing each test left and right are you playing them at the same volume level? exactly the same. It looks like you are based on the tweeters output but I want to be sure about that. Are you moving the mics position when you switch left to right? Zero change. I'm measureing w/tape measure to make sure, etc. I ran the left at 5/2, then 4/x - then moved the mic to the right speak & duplicated it. The height is locked in due to the mic stand, etc. The left K'Horn tap 4/0 looks pretty good *except* for the hot tweeter. That is one problem. The right K'Horn also has the hot tweeter so that problem is common to both and needs to be addressed. L-Pad/autoformer/EQ...etc...etc.. The right K'Horn looks worse from about 500hz and down too so something isn't right there either. It might just be the room... but.... New tests to try.... Make a measurement from the middle of the room equal distance to both speakers with each speaker playing pink noise alone, then another with each speaker playing pink noise together. In the sweet spot? Basically I want to see what the composite of both speakers looks like together from a position equal distance from both and also measurements of each speaker on its own to try and see what the room is doing. Don't worry about changing tap settings or anything like that right now. Related tests to try...... do you have a CD with different frequency tones on it? I have an Avia disc but I don't think it has anything where you can choose certain frequencies. So no. If so try the following... Play a 1000hz tone in both speakers. Stand about in the middle of the room facing the K'Horns and listen to the tone. Does it appear to be coming from directly in front of you or does it sound diffuse and sound more like it is surrounding you. Play a 100hz tone and answer the same question. If you need to know what kind of difference I'm talking about here as a test reverse the speaker connections on one of your amps to intentionally throw a speaker out of phase and listen to how the pink noise changes in tone and imaging Can I ask why I should care about imaging right now? when played back through both speakers and you centered between them. What I'm wondering is if perhaps the right woofer or squawker is out of phase There is nothing out of phase on my end. and that is contributing to the poor response from 500hz and down. Another test you could try if you don't have test tones is just to reverse the phase to the right woofer and remeasure the right speaker again to see how its FR looks then. (Note: this is just a test... you could have just thrown the woofers out of phase L to R but we are just doing this to see how right responds to the change) Yep - I'm confused now. I don't understand. Another test to maybe try is just hooking your right amp directly to the right woofer alone and playing/measuring pink noise. (eliminates possible out of phase interference from the squawker as the problem... leave room and/or bad woofer) Report back on those and it will show the next step to take... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.