Considering Klipschorn "upgrade" ~ Really do need some guidance

[KT88]

"What
now worries me is "where to put the tweeter?" The 511B would
leave no room to put it along side the mid (like your Trachorn
provides), and I really don't want the overall height of the speaker to grow an additional whatever-the-tweeter-is-in-inches."

Just a silly question from a laymans perspective.

Why is it possible to construct a horn loaded system with the tweeter alongside the squaker without having such issues like interference in the cross over region between mids and highs?



In most of conventional hifi speakers the tweeter
is vertically on axis with the midrange driver. Only some off them have
an slightly offset like the Proac but then it is mirrored between left
and right tweeter. On axis is argued with the benefit of avoiding
interference in the cross over region between mids and highs. Interference is
said to be more obvious to the ear in a horizontal configuration than
in the a vertical centered positioning of the tweeter above or under
the midrange driver.



Al Ks trachorn is not the first one I have seen in a alongside
configuration. Just remember EV Sentry 3 and stuff like this having
been very sucsessfull. Therefore my question does not mean any
critizism, I am just missing some understanding (and have never heard
an alongside the squaker construction personally)



Heinz

[Deang]

"Why is it possible to construct a horn loaded system with the tweeter alongside the squawker without having such issues like interference in the cross over region between mids and highs?

Unless one uses very steep slopes, there is always going to be "interference" between the drivers because of the overlapping of their responses/outputs. I personally believe the word is too strong, and the negative connotation detracts from the technical advantages and resultant good sound from electrically blending the responses. Of course, driver alignment/arrangement relates to this, but shows up in our room in the form of acoustic summation -- and it's all very nasty and unpleasant stuff to read about. The horizontal arrangement certainly doesn't seem to be ideal, and I myself was very worried about it -- until I did it. I very much lean towards the idea that the human ear could careless about half of the things people get all worked up over. All I can say is that if a person wants all the things found from the good cone and dome speakers on the market -- they should stay away from horns. I enjoy horns for their clean and dynamic presentation, and would never trade a great polar response for the effortless hair trigger transients and realism in presentation I'm presently experiencing.

[cjgeraci]

Like a number on this forum, I have owned a variety of speakers over the years, horns and non-horns where the tweeter is located above the midrange. Heck, even my Altec Valencias (now converted to 3 ways) have Beyma CP25s directed above 811 horns.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I find that I actually prefer the Trachorn configuration now - as far as the way the overall sound presents itself. I agree that comments such as "inteference" evoke a negative reaction and really do not reflect the reality of listening to a pair of Trachorns - with the tweeters to the outside. Again, Al thanks for implementing such a great product and package that really takes vintage Heritage to the next level.

Since it is the biggest bang for the buck, I would start with Trachorns with Bob's tweeters (or the Eminence APT200 - also uses the same driver that Bob's uses) with your stock network first. Then, finish it off with ALKs after you live with the Trachorns for awhile.

As far as Beymas go, mine have really grown on me in the couple of months I have had them. Having swapped them back and forth with Bob's tweeters (between my Belles and my Altecs), the Beymas sound more natural to me, however, paired with a non-Klipsch squawker driver (aka Altec) and Bob's tweeters sound more natural with the K-55/Trachorn. So, I would start with Bob's tweeters first, and you can always upgrade later if you want to.

Carl.

[RFP]

I enjoy horns for their clean and dynamic presentation, and would never trade a great polar response for the effortless hair trigger transients and realism in presentation I'm presently experiencing.

First, please let me apologize for the giantic font size of my earlier posts... I had dorked up my computer settings!

Well, even though I am a complete know-nothing layman, I completely agree with Dean.

Many years ago, I got it into my head that my [original] pair of Klipschorns must surely be outdated and in dire need of being replaced with something more 'modern.' So, I sold my lovely and beloved Ks (which I had veneered with beautifully figured Honduras Mahogany) to a friend of mine who had lusted after them for a long time.

Then I set out to listed to every 'high end' speaker system that I could find in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. I spent countless hours listening to Theil, Vandersteen, NTH, and a g'zillion others whose names escape me for the moment. I found that none was as satisfying as my 'old' Klipschorns... I told my wife that each and every one of those 'other' speakers sounded like they had a blanket thrown over them! They were all just about as uninvolving as they could be

So, I located a 'replacement' pair of Klipschorns at the goof folks at Audio Classics and had them shipped half way across the country to me. When they arrived, they were even nicer than I had expected or hoped. I was back again in Audio delight!

I'll not be making that mistake again. That's why I'm trusting only the guidance of this group as I embark on an upgrading adventure.

All the bestAll the best

Rob

The north side our music room: '83 Klipschorn and other gear

[RFP]

So, I would start with Bob's tweeters first, and you can always upgrade later if you want to. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Carl.

Thanks, Carl

I'm afraid that I don't know what 'Bob's tweeters' are. Could you kindly point me in the right direction to learn more?

Since I will probably continue to use the Klipsch mid driver (K55) coupled to Mr. K's Trachorn, I would probably prefer to go ahead and get the 'prefered' tweeter at the outset, instead of looking at another 'upgrade later'... heck, I'm 66, how many more upgrades can I survive? []

[sfogg]

"there is always going to be "interference" between the drivers because of the overlapping of their responses/outputs. I personally believe the word is too strong, and the negative connotation detracts"

Interference is the proper term for what happens. It is basic physics wave theory. Any two waves interacting will have interference between them.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Interference.html

It is pretty easy to hear the interference between drivers. Stand a few feet in front of the your speaker and squat down while playing pink noise. Slowly stand up to full height and you will hear the pink noise change as relative distances between drivers changes from your vertical movement. That is for vertically arranged drivers.

If the drivers are arranged horizontally move horizontally and you will hear the changes.

"and would never trade a great polar response "

Actually, it is possible to get *better* polar response with some horns them with cones and domes. That is one of the advantages of horns, better control over the dispersion pattern.

Shawn

[Deang]

I stand corrected.

So, what's your take Shawn with the horizontal alignment?

[garymd]

You're getting a lot of advice here from folks who don't mind completely changing the way a Klipschorn sounds! I've heard some of these mods and prefer the way my speakers sound with the stock drivers. I agree you should change your networks. It was the best bang for the buck mod I ever made. As far as the rest of the stuff, that's up to your ears. Personally, I like the way a Khorn sounds.

JMHO!

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Rob,

Yes! If you have the woodworking skills you can tuck a 511b inside a khorn and make it look like it was there all along! I put 811b horns in my Belles before I had the Trachorns and it looked quite nice. The only tipoff was the spacers on either side to raise the top about 3/4 inch.

If you have the AK-3 network you can save some money on upgrades. The woofer filter on the AK-3 is quite good. It only lacks the mirror image filter to make it constnat impedance. That is what my AP12-AK3 netwroks actually is. That combined with the ES5800 and you will be there!

Al K

Thanks [again] Mr. K !

Thinking about all of this is great fun! I am sure that I could do a good job of incorporating the 511B into my Klipschorns... I have no doubt at all. What now worries me is "where to put the tweeter?" The 511B would leave no room to put it along side the mid (like your Trachorn provides), and I really don't want the overall height of the speaker to grow an additional whatever-the-tweeter-is-in-inches.

Of course, I could build a little box for the tweeter to sit on the top (ugh).

Or, I could spring for your Trachorns (!)

If you want to use teh Altecs, I was going to go that route. The ALtec 511's will fit in the K Horn top bin with room for JBL 2404's if you don't mind modifying the Altecs. (Bob Crites may kill me for this).

Look at the flange of the Altec. If you cut the top and bottom of the flange (I think about 1"+) the overall dimension of the flange will fit in the top bin.

Chris

[sfogg]

"So, what's your take Shawn with the horizontal alignment?"

With a high slope crossover it likely makes little difference WRT lobing/comb filtering.

With more traditional crossovers it will change the lobing/comb filtering between the drivers from happening in the vertical plane to happening in the horizontal plane.

Typically drivers are done vertically to move the lobing to the vertical plane in an attempt for as smooth a horizontal dispersion/off axis horizontal FR as possible. That gives a wider 'sweet spot' and if the off axis response is well controlled and even it usually means the speaker will sound somewhat more consistent in different rooms or in different speaker positions. What you hear at the listening position in any normal room is the composite of both the on axis and off axis response. If you had perfectly flat on axis response (in a chamber) and very uneven off axis response then when you are sitting at the listening position (even on axis) in a real room the off axis reflections will be altering what you hear and screwing with the FR at the listening position.

When you lobe horizontally it alters the off axis horizontal FR which means the speakers sweet spot narrows (the sound of the speaker will change more as you move out of the sweet spot) and how the speaker will sound will vary more in different rooms.

How much that is an issue to someone depends upon where they listen from, how the room is interacting and also likely if they are sensitive to what this sounds like. It seems to me not everyone is sensitive to comb filtering or at least they have never had it pointed out to them so they don't really notice it as an artifact.

Shawn

[3dzapper]

You're getting a lot of advice here from folks who don't mind completely changing the way a Klipschorn sounds! I've heard some of these mods and prefer the way my speakers sound with the stock drivers. I agree you should change your networks. It was the best bang for the buck mod I ever made. As far as the rest of the stuff, that's up to your ears. Personally, I like the way a Khorn sounds.

JMHO!

I'll second Gary on replacing the crossovers before doing anything else. My personal recommendation is ALK Type As combined with a set of Al K's tweeter autotransformers. This combination allows the fine tuning of driver output to match your room and ears. Al's extreme slope would be a better though more expensive alternative.

I find the ALKs excellent at any volume level from background to concert hall.

OK, I differ from Gary on the addition of trachorns and clearer, more extended tweeters. Both, to my ears add a level of clarity and neutrality. I do not have Al's horns. I made my own using Dr Bruce Edgar's plans as a basis as did Al. It was a pain but the ability to say "I did it myself" was worth the extra effort.

Even before the trachorns I was using JBL 2404H tweeters in boxes atop the Khorns. I built a pair of L-pads to match all the components before buying Al's tweeter attenuators.

Most, myself included but not Bob, think the addition of trachorns result in an increased percieved level in the squawker range. To adjust for this, an adjustable, constant impedence crossover such as Al's or Dean's is necessary. This is another reason to start with the crossover.

Just don't do anything that can't be undone, do it your way, and have some FUN!!!

Rick

[RFP]

Would you truly get 104+ dB efficiency with a cone hooked up to a "salad bowl"?

Hardhead (!)

I finally dug through all my info on the 'salad bowl' horns and the Dynaudio D54s... Dr, Bruce Edgar was very fond of this particular dome driver and according to him, he was seeing 103db/W efficiency when the D54 was mated to his rectangulat Tractrix horn. I would expect the same efficiency with the round Tractrix.

Gosh, I wish I had time to get the drivers and 'salad bowls' put together in time to take to Hope tomorrow. Dang... another opportunity down the tubes.

Actually, I'm liking Al K's Trachorn idea better by the day!

Cheerz,

Rob