What cartridge???

[tjnif]

Thanks for the replies guys! Def, don't know why you seem angry...... I'm not buyying to brag, I buy what I like and what I can afford. There will always be someone who can afford nicer things than you or me,big deal! For your info, I bought all my Mac gear used from audioclassics,I personally would not buy new and lay down all that large $$$$$$. I will brag about my HRX though.....6200 brand new latest model in April (go to your dealer and ask how much he will sell one to you)! Back to the cartridgr. I am merely trying to narrow down the ones that you guys suggest will be worthwhile,of course my ears will decide for me,and i will also probably buy used/demo. As for phono stage I am checking out the Dynavector PHA-200. Has anyone listened to The "kaitora" cartridge?? In the meantime I am still using my Scout w/ dynavector 10x5. Thanks again,and keep em comin...

[maxg]

Gary,

You have a reply.

Wolfram,

Interesting comparison between the Denon and the Shelters isnt it. I know people who definitely prefer the 103 over the 501 on normal rigs and as I have said many times I prefer the 103 over the 901 on mine.

If your arm is a good match to the 103 the difference between it and the Shelter probably isnt worth it in the main - unless your arm is a perfect match for the Shelter. Put the 2 on a suitable high mass arm and you will hear differences but sonically they are definitely in the same family. I have a feeling I read somewhere that the Shelter is based on the 103 design anyway - but using better materials and higher tolerances.

Is it worth the difference? Only the ears of the buyer can tell you that.

[dubai2000]

Max,

the Shelter/Denon experience was indeed quite interesting. I admit I had not been a great fan of the Shelters. I rember once listening to a 501(not at home though!) and I didn't feel the need to investigate further.

The 90X is certainly an impressive cart, but in terms of 'tone' the similarity between it and Denon might indeed speak for the 'family relationship' you are indicating.

Next step will be trying the ebony head shell from Yamamoto - it gets pretty impressive 'reviews' over here.

Wolfram

[jazman]

Wolfram,

Interesting comparison between the Denon and the Shelters isnt it. I know people who definitely prefer the 103 over the 501 on normal rigs and as I have said many times I prefer the 103 over the 901 on mine.

If your arm is a good match to the 103 the difference between it and the Shelter probably isnt worth it in the main - unless your arm is a perfect match for the Shelter. Put the 2 on a suitable high mass arm and you will hear differences but sonically they are definitely in the same family. I have a feeling I read somewhere that the Shelter is based on the 103 design anyway - but using better materials and higher tolerances.

Is it worth the difference? Only the ears of the buyer can tell you that.

Wolfam,

The Denon 103D is considered the highest evolution of the Denon 103 series. It is a wonderful cartridge. That said, I own the DL103D along with several other Denon LOMC cartridges, including the DL-S1 which is the top Denon LOMC available currently. As wonderful as the Denon cartridges are, and many may never feel the need to go further, it does not provide the performance of the ZYX R1000 Airy 3. I have the DL103D and the ZXY Airy 3 both mounted for duty with my VPI Aries turntable. (VPI has a cartridge weight to add additional mass which may create a closer battle.) The 103D will always sound very musical, but when you can follow it, or preceed it, with the ZYX, then you can understand the Airy 3 is the better performing cartridge. Without that type of close playback of the two, I can understand thinking the DL103D is all one may want or need. It is also important to note, as both Max and Wollfam already know, evaluating a cartridge in a system requires more than one or two playbacks of a favorite LP, but also many hours of listening to many LPs. I can state from personal experience, the ZYX is "REAL".

For others browsing this thread;

I should also mention that Max and I both arrived at our appreciation for the ZYX Airy 3 without prior discussions of it, so there is no collusion on our part to send anyone forth to spend more money for no gain. I also know of an individual using a Basis table/ Graham tonearm with ZYX Airy 3, with many years of audio experience, who felt the Airy 3 was the best cartridge he has experienced. Again, only the ears of the buyer can determine where the performance line is drawn in the sand, as well as how much he/she is willing to pay for that performance.

Klipsch out.

[jazman]

Thanks for the replies guys! Def, don't know why you seem angry...... I'm not buyying to brag, I buy what I like and what I can afford. There will always be someone who can afford nicer things than you or me,big deal! For your info, I bought all my Mac gear used from audioclassics,I personally would not buy new and lay down all that large $$$$$$. I will brag about my HRX though.....6200 brand new latest model in April (go to your dealer and ask how much he will sell one to you)! Back to the cartridgr. I am merely trying to narrow down the ones that you guys suggest will be worthwhile,of course my ears will decide for me,and i will also probably buy used/demo. As for phono stage I am checking out the Dynavector PHA-200. Has anyone listened to The "kaitora" cartridge?? In the meantime I am still using my Scout w/ dynavector 10x5. Thanks again,and keep em comin...

tjnif,

Def is probably a bit miffed because I wrote that he was "Def"(deaf[]) in another thread. Sorry Def. [A]

Congrats on a great price for the HRX. I have not heard the Kaitora, but if I considered going that far pricewise, I would not stop short of one of the two XV-1 cartridges. You already seem to know how to work on getting a better than list price. You must also already have a phono pre of some sort since you currently have a TT. What are you currently using? A high quality pair of step-up transformers may be all you need, and you could come well under the cost of the PHA-200.

Klipsch out.

[edwinr]

I'm thinking of the DL103 for myself. Do you guys know what sort of arms this thing is best suited to? I just bought a Connoisseur turntable and it's currently running a Shure M97ED. As jazman may be suggesting in his post, are higher mass arms preferable? Or can this Denon cartridge be used with lower mass arms?

[maxg]

Forget using the 103 on a low mass arm. the compliance is too low for that. Anything with an apparent mass over 12 should be fine. You can get away with less than that (slightly) but at a sonic cost.

[edwinr]

Just what I was thinking, Max. I'll check out some other options. The 103 would be better off in a Rega style arm, like the RB250 or RB300. Or perhaps one of the Origin Live versions - the OL1-S, for example.

[maxg]

The Origins should be a good bet - Josh is very pleased with his. Just try to go for the higher mass versions - I think Josh's was a 14 gram unit (the Silver?)

[tjnif]

Thanks for the info jazz. I haven't even put my HRX together......still using my VPI scout,the dynavector 10x5 does not need a pre amp.... What stepus trans do you suggest??

[Def Leper]

That's just nonsense!

Who above has recommended a high priced cart that they haven't heard?

That would probably be the guy who said "I might suggest the ZYX Universe. I have not heard it personally..."

All the statements like "I've heard those and they can't compare with these" are great for you but what if someone else can't hear the difference? That's a lot of change to spend for someone new for the hobby who probably doesn't even have a clue as to how to set the darn thing up on the turntable to get that high-end sound. What's wrong with helping other people go through some of the same learning and discover process that you did? That's half the fun of it anyway, and the other half is listening to the music.

[garymd]

Def,

I don't think he bought a $10K+ table expecting to use a Grado Green or Shure M97. He already has a nice TT and I doubt this is a learning process for him. He's not just getting his feet wet with vinyl. Sounds like he's been drenched for quite some time.

[Travis In Austin]

This guy's info is interesting, I don't agree with some of it. http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Cartridges.html

He was not too high on the Helikon, but at the price range you are talking about you would be into the Lyra Titan anyway, I have heard the cartridge and it is incredible, of course it was hooked up to a $50,000 turntable so it should have sounded great. The Titan would almost be perfectly matched if you are running with the 12.6 tonearm. By the way, at CES, they used Titans in the Basis room, the Grand Prix room, and the VPI room. Since it is such a good match for your arm (12.6) it is probably worth at least a listen.

Here is another thought, call VPI, tell them you have there top of the line table and you want to know what they suggest, and why. They will take the time and tell you. HW spends a lot of time on research and he can use any cartridge he wants, within the limits of his tonearms, and he is going to want to suggest to you something that really shows of that TT. Ask them what there reference cartridge is.

I think the best advice you have gotten is pick what you like. The great thing about cartiridges is that there is not as much of a correlation between cost and sound as in other areas. Spending 10,000 on a cartridge is not going to get you better sound than a $5,000 cartridge, it will be different, but not better.

I noticed that several folks asked about a Phono Statge, but that C2200 has a pretty good sounding one, one that is going to be hard to beat unless you spend some real big, big money.

Good luck, and let us know what you decided on. Do you have some photos of that new TT you can share yet?

Travis

[dubai2000]

Edwin,

Max is certainly right about those Denon DL-103 currently available ('plain' 103 and 103R), but there are other Denon 103's built for lighter arms. My 103D for example runs also on a medium weight arm (so I was told) and the 103 M (I think) was built for light arms like the SME Series III (around 5 gr. mass). So I'd look around. For more info on technical details of cartridges try www.cartridgedatabase.com

Jazman,

no doubt direct comparison will reveal the limits of those Denons and I am the last person not being tempted by 'better'......

Anyway, as you also run the 103D I want to know what you think of the following setup: a gentleman over at the vinyl asylum stated that he liked his 103D best when the arm was not paralell to the platter, but the cart lower (he wrote considerably) at its back (pin side). Apparently he put some kind of elecrical tape on top of the cartridge. Any thoughts on that?

I did play around a bit with VTA....and so far I seem to agree with the parelell (more or less) arm position. But it's always interesting to hear about other users' experiences.

And yes, synergy is pretty important, too. My Holfi, for example, is really great with MC carts...and though it can be adjusted for MM, I really prefer the phono section of my MX110 for those type of cartridges.....strange.

Wolfram

[edwinr]

Thanks, Wolfgram. I'm checking out the Denon website and other sources to find out more about the 103 options.

Regarding the VTA. I'm wondering how exact it needs to be. I've got several albums with varying degrees of thickness. Obviously the VTA would change every time I change albums. Maybe the this variation is not significant enough to effect the VTA.

[joshnich]

The Origins should be a good bet - Josh is very pleased with his. Just try to go for the higher mass versions - I think Josh's was a 14 gram unit (the Silver?)

The more I listen the more pleased I am! Going through the record collection has been quite eye ( or should I say ear) opening. I have the encounter which has a mass of 14.5 grams. The Silver has a mass of 14 grams. The arms in the Origin Live line in fron of these have mass of 11 grams those being the OL1 and the Origin version of the RB250. The Silver and the Encounter are Origin designs where as the OL1 is a really modded Rega.

I have to say based on my experience, I may have gone about this backwards. I bought the Shelter 901 ( I got a really good deal on a used one that was local) and then, in order to to realize the performance of the Shelter, found an arm to match it . It looks as if upgrading the table first followed by the tonearm and then matching the cartridge is the prefered path. However I got here I am pleased as punch ! And I have to admit it's fun going through the process. Just when I thought I was at the end.......

I guess that's why it's a hobby.

Josh

[Mike Lindsey]

I have to say based on my experience, I may have gone about this backwards. I bought the Shelter 901 ( I got a really good deal on a used one that was local) and then, in order to to realize the performance of the Shelter, found an arm to match it . It looks as if upgrading the table first followed by the tonearm and then matching the cartridge is the prefered path. However I got here I am pleased as punch ! And I have to admit it's fun going through the process. Just when I thought I was at the end.......

I guess that's why it's a hobby.

Josh

I went the same route as you. I started with a Denon DL-103 cartridge, and wanted to get a SME-3009 arm to mate it with. Then needed to find a table that worked well with the arm. I was originally looking for a Thorens TD-125, but wound up with a beautiful TD-124 and am so glad I did.

I also had to upgrade the BlueBerry Xtreme by adding the Cream option to play the LOMC cartridges. Suffice it to say it was an expensive proposition by starting with a $150 cartridge. []

Mike

[LarryC]

Apropos of no particular cartridge, the Audiogon Forum seems to be a useful source of comments on almost any specific component. For example, a search on Denon (limited to the "analog" area) gets a bunch of threads on the 103 and other Denon carts.

[tjnif]

Def, i know your entitled to your own opinion but your a little to quick to judge and make assumptions about me. I do NOT want to go throgh the "discovery process".....Not fun for me. I would rather cheat and pick the brains of the good people on this forum! I know a "little" bit about Hi Fi,definetly no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I know what good music sounds like,to me....that I am an expert in. As for setting up the turntable,the good folks at Audioclassics in Binghamton NY (Ryan) will come to my house and help me set it up......and I didn't even buy it from them!! To have someone who knows what he's doin next to me will make that part of "discovery and leaning processs " alot more fun and less painful! He also called VPI for me and they suggested (for the type of music I listen to) the Dynavector PHA-200 phono stage and the Kaitora cartridge. It seems that VPI has a love relationship with dynavector,but listening to it and comparing it will be fun! to be continued....

[jazman]

That's just nonsense!

Who above has recommended a high priced cart that they haven't heard?

That would probably be the guy who said "I might suggest the ZYX Universe. I have not heard it personally..."

All the statements like "I've heard those and they can't compare with these" are great for you but what if someone else can't hear the difference? That's a lot of change to spend for someone new for the hobby who probably doesn't even have a clue as to how to set the darn thing up on the turntable to get that high-end sound. What's wrong with helping other people go through some of the same learning and discover process that you did? That's half the fun of it anyway, and the other half is listening to the music.

Def,

First of all, I suggested the ZYX Universe based on the initial basis of the post, which is "cost, no object". Second, I own the cartridge which is the top world wide product offering in the ZYX product line which provides some first hand frame of reference, as well as being based on personal discussions and some relationship with the U.S. ZYX distributor, I have more than casual faith that it is worthy of a "'cost, no object" recommendation. I did recommended the ZYX Airy R1000 Airy 3 which I DO own and have heard, and hear daily. FYI, the Universe is a limited production build by ZYX as a "cost, no object" offering, produced by direct request of the U.S. distributor, and available only through the U.S. distributor. You can find some in depth comments on the Universe on the Audiogon forum if that would help you.

If you, or someone else can't hear the difference in different levels of products, that's fine. It indicates several possibilities, one of which could be lack of experience, which would also indicates one should not be shopping in that level of the market. One thing it does NOT indicate is, that there is no difference. I hope that clarifies things better for you.

BTW, I do try to buy audio products from a range of product options determined as "best I can afford" kind of list created after some research and auditions whenever possible. Yes, I understand the "audio law of diminishing return". I also read and participate in this forum because it is important that I read other peoples opinion, whether I agree with them or not. More important however, you seem to have a problem with anyone who may be willing to invest more in their audio system than you are willing to spend. That's fine too, and could easily be addressed by you in your own post, maybe titled "How I created an audio system that sounds as good as any on the face of the earth for less than the cost of ....." or whatever. I will look forward to it and surely read it with zeal.

Klipsch out.