"Shake & Bass" question

[Coytee]

If you have a sub with your Khorn/LaScalas/Belles and love the effect but sometimes think you'd prefer the performance of a horn loaded sub...

Would you give up say, 1/2 of the sub's performance to achieve the benefits of a horn loaded sub?

Would you feel it's better to have the efficiency of a horn sub with the same clarity of your bass bin (with less brute output) or is it better to have the maximum output when it might cause you to lose some efficiency and gain some distortion?

Where do you draw this imaginary line?

[Al Klappenberger]

Richard,

My personal view is the sub isn't needed. I have a Klipsch LF-10 sub here working with my Belles. It really does go down to 20 Hz too. I measured it. It's set up with a 24 dB / octave active crossover at 70 Hz. I have it so I can completey switch it out and run the Belles alone. It has been switched out and unpluged for quite a while now!

Al K.

[Coytee]

Here's why I bring this up.

Last night I was listening to Rush DVD in Rio. I don't know the name of the song but it's the drum solo "El baristo" or something like that. (I'm not a big Rush fan, but like some of their stuff going back to the 70's)

Back to the drum solo...

Let's just say that I turned it up. I turned it up louder than I've done before. I turned it upppppppp. What is really scary is I did not turn it WAYYY up.

These things got bass. You ever heard a cacophony of violence? (and I say that in a good way).

I was standing perhaps 25' away with the volume fairly loud. I was feeling direct vibrations (waves passing by?) from the drumset. My guts were vibrating, the floor was vibrating, heck, my eyelashes were vibrating.

I've been to some rock concerts before and was just awed by the depth and power of their bass system (in quality setups). I then would go home and listen to my LaScalas, or EV's or Khorns and never really get the "feeling" of that IMPACT of power, though they've always been the closed I've come.

Until now.

I was standing there listening to this onslaught with a big s**t eating grin on my face, in total disbelief that I have FINALLY reached the same sound potential that I've experienced in these mega system concerts. (albiet on a smaller scale thankfully)

Well, that got me wondering and realizing.

I think it was 6foot8 who's moniker says something like "Jubilees...all the bass thats fit to hear" or something.

My oh my, is he right.

So, that got me wondering what kind of sub someone would even TRY to mate with these things. I then decided that (for me) there really is NO desire for a sub, NOR my lovely little dbx subharmonic synth (it's out of the system now)

What I then realized is, this is as close to nirvona that I've ever been. All the purity, clarity (blah blah blah) of quality sound, along with all the big, nasty (and things I love) PUNCH in the face that I so love. This really is having your cake and eating it too. You 2A3 guys would hate this! [6]

So, it's with that experience that I got to thinking about the tradeoffs between a sub and a horn loaded sub. If someone has Heritage and a subwoofer, how might they prioritize the tradeoffs between what the sub adds into their sound, verses how a Jubilee bass bin might also add to their sound.

If you could get 1/2 the performance of a sub with the clarity, balance & seamlessness of a horn, is that better than the absolute thunder of a sub?

For me (having NEVER owned a sub, yet wanted one for years) the answer is clear. No subs need apply.

[DrWho]

I think the most important thing is to achieve the bandwidth required by the music. A distorted 20Hz is going to sound better than no 20Hz at all. And when the sub is properly implemented it shouldn't change the sound over the bandwidth of the original system (so if the music doesn't call for information in the subwoofer's region, then it'll be as if it weren't there).

I think that made sense?

If you ask me, I say the Jubilees definetly need a subwoofer....yes, it'd have to be quite capable, but I don't think it would have to be horn loaded.

[oldbuckster]

COYTEE, Such problems a man should have..........PUT THE SUB AWAY.........I wish I didn't need a sub..........In Musical terms; Bass is an Accompany Instrument, not the Lead instrument, depending in whose hands it is in, it should not be the dominant sound......I bet the Jubilees have more than enough BOTTOM...............All that Boom Boom you hear in Car Audio is Noise Pollution.................and I'm sure they will handle anything a sub woofer would put out, and then some...........

[JJkizak]

Tha's funny, bass and drums and cymbals are dominant at concerts and night clubs. Kind of blows away your theory.

JJK

[ZAKO]

I agree with oldbuckster.....Bass dont lead.....Just to get a little more butt-tickling.

[Coytee]

In Musical terms; Bass is an Accompany Instrument, not the Lead instrument, depending in whose hands it is in, it should not be the dominant sound..

Hmm.. I thought I gave an example for which I was speaking of, specifically a drum solo??

Would not a drum solo be a lead instrument and dominate the sound?

[]

Maybe I framed the scenario poorly... oh well.

[]

[oldbuckster]

In Musical terms; Bass is an Accompany Instrument, not the Lead instrument, depending in whose hands it is in, it should not be the dominant sound..

Hmm.. I thought I gave an example for which I was speaking of, specifically a drum solo??

Would not a drum solo be a lead instrument and dominate the sound?

[]

Maybe I framed the scenario poorly... oh well.

[]

If the drum set is the only instrument playing , of course your right.......Maybe I phrased it wrong, so let's try this, I am totally correct about the Bass being an Accompany instrument, it is not intended to dominate the sound, unless it's the only instrument being played............When a band is playing all together, the bass should not dominate, really the Lead singer should be right out front, not drowned out by bottom, same for Guitar, the Rhythm section, usually Bass and Drums, set the beat, they are the heart beat of the band..............I know that is a basic explanation, but I don't know the right words to use......I really thought it was more about if you should or shouldn't use your sub woofer ........My answer to that hasn't changed.........Put it Away.........I bet you don't need it.......Sometimes I don't read so well........forgive me, I probably misunderstood what you were trying to say, and should not have responded to your post..............I'm just alittle pup when compared to a Big Dog Trendsetter like yourself...........JubieeBoy...........Later Bud[]

[colterphoto1]

I agree with oldbuckster.....Bass dont lead.....Just to get a little more butt-tickling.

If you're listening to Rush, Yes, or Who, the electric bass is used not only as a melody instrument, but takes a considerable amount of the acoustical and electrical energy a system can muster.

In a live sound situation, that 'kick' that moves you is generally the kick drum and the bass guitar. That bass they require is like 80% of the energy of the sound system. You BET they lead the way. The singer's vocals by comparison utilize only a small part of the sound system. Just watch the little blinky lights on the sound console sometime.

M

[oldbuckster]

I agree with oldbuckster.....Bass dont lead.....Just to get a little more butt-tickling.

If you're listening to Rush, Yes, or Who, the electric bass is used not only as a melody instrument, but takes a considerable amount of the acoustical and electrical energy a system can muster.

In a live sound situation, that 'kick' that moves you is generally the kick drum and the bass guitar. That bass they require is like 80% of the energy of the sound system. You BET they lead the way. The singer's vocals by comparison utilize only a small part of the sound system. Just watch the little blinky lights on the sound console sometime.

M

This subject is a whole thread in it's self...........Maybe Maron can put it in words better than I.............but............Why is it called Lead Singer, Lead Guitarist as opposed to rhythm Guitar, or back up singer............because it's out front, not drowned out by the rhythm section.............the Kick and the Bass lay down the Rhythm.........When Coltrane plays his horn, what's out front, and what backs him up? Because you go to a club or concert, and they turn up the bottom, doesn't mean It's the lead,..........it's the BEAT, it makes you move, it makes you feel it, it's the kick in the ***, but it's not the lead. Maybe, someone with alittle more Musical Education could explain it better, I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box, but I know I'm right about this.....................Bottom line, Coytee can probably accomplish this without the use of a Sub, with those Jubilee's..........and that's all I'm trying to say...........

[Coytee]

heh heh heh...

Buckster, I'm not sure that anyone would argue your points. I DO however, wonder if you saw my specific comment above

"Last night I was listening to Rush DVD in Rio. I don't know the name of the song but it's the drum solo "El baristo"'

As such, there was no lead singer, lead guitar, lead piccolo...[] It was just Rush's drummer flailing away on his massive drumset. All stage lights off but for his. He WAS the lead and accompanyment.

The drumset is massive and the sound was massive. I could probably live just fine if I never buy this dvd (belongs to a friend). I think I've decided I'll buy that dvd if for NOTHING ELSE THAN THAT DRUM SOLO!!!!!

That drum solo would definately be something to put on when someone wanted to get an idea of what these things are capable of doing. [A]

I don't have a sub, never have (though I wanted one) and now, never will. (don't think I'd need one, besides, I think it would only serve to muddy the sound...these things have a genuine FLOOR that they lay down for you)

I think it was probably MY pencil that needed sharpened when I tried to make my original point. [:$]

[oldbuckster]

COYTEE, Your getting my Northern dander up here, If you want a drum solo, Neil Peart is a great drummer, forget Rush....................CREAM Royal Albert Hall May 2.3.5.6...........Let these Old Dawgs take you and your Jubilee's for a ride......These Old Dawgs have Teeth, and Damn Man, they Bite.............

[Coytee]

Actually, I've got that dvd too (mine, not borrowed).

Forgot I had it [:$] Need to pull it out and obey my elders...you DID say to turn it up LOUD I think?

[]

[oldbuckster]

Actually, I've got that dvd too (mine, not borrowed).

Forgot I had it [:$] Need to pull it out and obey my elders...you DID say to turn it up LOUD I think?

[]

Is there any other way??????? Ginger Baker doesn't even look like he's moving, and listen to Eric and Jack.................Bud, I could go on forever about this stuff........

[JJkizak]

oldbuckster:

I find that I do not agree with anything you say, not even one thing.

JJK

[Frzninvt]

When I am listening to music or watching my Satdish TV I typically don't run the subwoofers. However, you are still missing content in the very lowest octaves even with those beasts. I run a pair of Velodyne Servo 15's and they are bottom dweller's providing the cleanest, lowest, smoothest subsonic output that I have heard down into the teens (15Hz). The tapping on the aquarium scene in Finding Nemo will literally pin you to the couch with the intensity of the shockwaves and that is no joke.

Get the Bass Mechanix disc and you will see where they drop off, it runs sweeps and identifies the cycles vocally. It will also identify what frequencies are more dominant than others. I would bet there won't be much there below 25Hz, not that there is alot of content in that region but there sure is in orchestral passages where large pipe organs are used. This is where you will realize that something is missing.

The Incredibles will leave your insides tickling, having four Klipschorn's, a La Scala center, and a pair of Heresy's having 200W each available to them helps too!

I went to bed one night and my wife and little girl were watching The Polar Express, and I swear to you in sounded like that train was rolling right through my place with the intensity.

For two channel I would say a subwoofer is optional, for Home Theater it is a MUST.

[oldbuckster]

oldbuckster:

I find that I do not agree with anything you say, not even one thing.

JJK

And if you met me, you probably won't like me..................Prove Me wrong..........What am I wrong about? Let's figure this out...........What point bothers you......What I say I thought was common knowledge? Just one point which I think is important, this whole thread is really based on the Jubilee speaker, which only two lucky members happen to own. I don't have an education in Music.........I am not a college graduate......I am not a musician, and I am not looking for a fight or agruement...........What am I wrong about? Please comment, I really am interested.............Teach me something..............

[Bennyboy]

All that Boom Boom you hear in Car Audio is Noise Pollution .

Totaly agree [] ...............So i am with you oldbuckster !

Okey , it is the bass what can make "music" spectacular .

But at the long term i think music has to be more in balance............or something ?

Ben

[Coytee]

However, you are still missing content in the very lowest octaves even with those beasts.

I think Charles has come closest to my brain waves as anyone here.

I'll put it this way...

If I'm indeed missing the very lowest octaves, then where do I draw the line. What I mean by that is, these things are STOUT. How much money, hardware, room tinkering etc..would I have to do , to find a sub that would mate well with them and after putting the efforts into that, how much would I gain? I'd say not much (relative to using LaScalas or even Khorns with a sub)

My way of thinking (and this is from someone who asipired to a 5.1 Heritage w/sub, just like Charles)...anyway, my way of thinking is, these things do what they do SOOOO well, that my prior interest in a sub has now withered away. It's an interesting feeling as I now feel free from that desire and frustration (of not having one).

I think for the "X" effort it would take to impliment a sub in between these two monoliths, there would only be an incrimental gain. Point being, how much MORE room shake do I need than these things already provide. I think we're talking about a point of diminishing returns and I'm guessing these things fall on the other side of the line of the cost/reward analysis (for me anyway). Meaning it would be a high cost and high effort for the low incremental gain.

(that is where I came up with my cacophony of violence idea [] )

I can hardly wait until some others get to hear these so they can chime in on how they like them in a home environment.