"Shake & Bass" question

[Frzninvt]

All that Boom Boom you hear in Car Audio is Noise Pollution .

Totaly agree [] ...............So i am with you oldbuckster !

Okey , it is the bass what can make "music" spectacular .

But at the long term i think music has to be more in balance............or something ?

Ben

Not all car audio systems are created equal. Most kids systems sound like 10 ten men beating on the side of a rubber raft. Giving that dreaded boom/crash sound or thunder and lightning so to speak. These are the people that give Car Audio a bad name.

However, I can assure you that my car system sounds better than 85% of all the systems on this forum because it was designed with Sound Quality in mind. I have two Orion 10" NT2 Dual Voice Coil subwoofers housed in a .85 cu ft sealed enclosure with 300W feeding each of them and the bass is solid and tight. They key is to balance your front sound stage to match the output of the subwoofers. Any idiot can put bass in a car, making it blend seamlessly with your front stage is another story. Quality components also make a huge difference.

[oldbuckster]

Bennyboy............your Avatar says all I need to know.............A Man that played Lead And Rhythm at the same time....................

[JJkizak]

oldbuckster:

Well, I guess I will be nice. I didn't know I could hear below 40 hz until I got the RSW-12. Now I can hear down to 19hz no problem. I can't hear a thing over 12.5khz. When I throw on "Crossroads" at loud volumes the sub comes alive and the concert comes alive. Without the sub it looses the concert feeling. The K-horns are a leap over conventional speakers and the sub adds another leap. With the K-horns 3 db down at 30hz I use the equalizer to allow for that. If you heard what the expander/compander does you would totally freak out too. It's like going from a Bose to a K-horn. The center channel is another leap. Anyway, a speaker system without a sub is like a Corvette without wheels.

JJK

[oldbuckster]

oldbuckster:

Well, I guess I will be nice. I didn't know I could hear below 40 hz until I got the RSW-12. Now I can hear down to 19hz no problem. I can't hear a thing over 12.5khz. When I throw on "Crossroads" at loud volumes the sub comes alive and the concert comes alive. Without the sub it looses the concert feeling. The K-horns are a leap over conventional speakers and the sub adds another leap. With the K-horns 3 db down at 30hz I use the equalizer to allow for that. If you heard what the expander/compander does you would totally freak out too. It's like going from a Bose to a K-horn. The center channel is another leap. Anyway, a speaker system without a sub is like a Corvette without wheels.

JJK

This is just my take on it..........First off, you don't hear Bass at 20 hz. you Feel It........If you Research that point you will get an answer, that is the Sub woofer effect, that effect at a concert is done withMega power, and a mic on the Bass drum,............As far as your expander/compander......never heard one, don't use one......Center channel......I don't care for the sound of my center channel with music, of course with movies, it is a different story, It is a personal taste issue with the center channel for music, to which I don't feel I'm wrong at all, I never have told anyone NOT to use their center channel, I have stated several times, that I choose not too...........So where are we here?........I will admit at the present time my center channel is the weak link in my chain, it's fine for movies, and can be used for concerts, but I don't care for the sound. You don't have to be nice, write what you feel, just remember this started over a question about the Jubilee, which only a few Lucky people have ever heard or owned............Me, I'd love to own a speaker system that doesn't need a Sub.................The first time I heard a Mac running La Scala's that sound didn't need a sub, Yeah,I know that was 30 something years ago.........No one used subs then like they do now...............

[Lascaladan]

I cannot believe this post(and I am not the problem). I have said this before. If YOU like it, go for it. Do it. Someone wanted an opinion on subs, and it has created monsters. Lets us just say what works best for US. Someone(I think DrWho) indicated that the best reason to use a sub was to cut off the last octave of the full range transducer, making it cleaner(the crossover of the sub does this). Owning the LSs, I find the bass to be natural and quite extended. I choose not to use subs. This is just me. No problem with 2 Velodyne subs. As long as the enjoyment is there. Drums, bass, all the instruments with lower registers, are important when listening. When watching and listening to movie soundtracks, subs are great. Because I listen almost exclusively to music through my LS system, I find I do not need to use subs. I have had subs connected, found I never used them. Again, point is : to each his own. We are all right if our ears say it is so.

[JJkizak]

oldbuckster:

I used the frequency test CD at 19hz, 20hz, 25 hz, and 30 hz and it was not vibration, but the walls, chair, pictures, windows, doors, floors were vibrating perfectly with the sound I heard. 19hz was almost inaudible. I keep the sub volume all the way up. There was a vast improvement at 30 hz also. 40hz on up didn't seem to change much with the K-horns. If you turn the sub off it feels like you dropped a couple of dimensions. There were a very low couple of bass notes during the song "cocaine" (Crossroads) that the K-horns kind of gloss over but the sub was just awsome. I would also say that my center channel Corwall is the finest speaker I have ever heard for voice reproduction.

PS: There is also a mistake made by the left handed guitatest during that song.

JJK

[oldbuckster]

oldbuckster:

I used the frequency test CD at 19hz, 20hz, 25 hz, and 30 hz and it was not vibration, but the walls, chair, pictures, windows, doors, floors were vibrating perfectly with the sound I heard. 19hz was almost inaudible. I keep the sub volume all the way up. There was a vast improvement at 30 hz also. 40hz on up didn't seem to change much with the K-horns. If you turn the sub off it feels like you dropped a couple of dimensions. There were a very low couple of bass notes during the song "cocaine" (Crossroads) that the K-horns kind of gloss over but the sub was just awsome. I would also say that my center channel Corwall is the finest speaker I have ever heard for voice reproduction.

PS: There is also a mistake made by the left handed guitatest during that song.

JJK

So what we really are talking about here, is a matter of taste, you like more Bass effect than I do........that's all.......No more, No less.........that's cool, no problem here. That left handed Guitar player is Doyle Bramhall.....son of Bonnie and Delaney , remember the album Delaney and Bonnie and Friends with Eric Clapton.........

[JJkizak]

oldbuckster:

I like to be aurically overwhelmed.

JJK

[oldbuckster]

oldbuckster:

I like to be aurically overwhelmed.

JJK

Turning a sub up all the way..........................Just might do that.........Me, I just turn my sub up just to the point you know it's there, I turn it down until you don't hear it, then turn it up to the point where you just hear it............a tip a forum member gave me..........it works for me and my meager set up.....................It's all what you want your system to sound like......My sub never gets turned past half volume..................although let me add this, I think my Heresy's with a good tube unit would NOT need a Sub................again, this is not fact, it's what I think, and someday soon, I'm going to have my buddy bring over his Scott intergrated 299 and we'll see what happens...................JJKIZAK believe me, I wish I didn't need to run a sub.........and when I get Khorns, I am not using a sub, I'll put it away for awhile, and let my ears be my guide.................I also like Blondes, and Red Heads, and Brunettes, and ...........................later

[DrWho]

Coytee, can I send some music your way and get your impressions on the bass? I played a few of these in Hope and was convinced a sub was needed....but that was on the Crown PS-400 (?'s) which are known to struggle a bit in the bass and it was only mono (you get a good boost of bass when moving to stereo).

Email would be easiest, but I suppose I could mail a demo CD too. Better yet I should try mailing myself that way I can hear for myself []

Neil Peart fricken rocks and he has some of the best drumming solos ever. Another DVD you might want to consider is that Godsmack DVD that Malotky has. There is some crazy style insane drummage in that video - it'll rock your world.

[Coytee]

you can try to email. I'll have to download at work (DSL) then burn to bring home. I'm on a 1/2 channel "ISDN" at home and because of other factors, I'm not full speed at that.

So, either email or perhaps snail mail...

I'd love to hear it.

[pauln]

DrWho said, "A distorted 20Hz is going to sound better than no 20Hz at all. "

Was that a misprint?

[DrWho]

No, but I guess I can see how it can be taken the wrong way...

[Jay481985]

I guess I am in the minority But I would like to a system that replicates all the sound even if it is out of my audible hearing. I believe there is quite a bit of below 20 hertz sound that occurs when you close a door and such. You cannot have a true sound without replicating all the frequencies.... Well atleast most companies believe in that, unlike another 4 letter company.

[Duke Spinner]

No, but I guess I can see how it can be taken the wrong way...

yes ...???

[garyrc]

O.K.... I have Khorns and a Belle center channel, and recently added a RSW-15 Klipsch sub. When listening to MUSIC sources, even when the sub is crossed over as low as 40 Hz, it sometimes seems to take away from the clarity of the Khorns/Belle, so I often use just the horns. BUT, I use the sub for MOVIES, out of a fear that the truly outrageous level of the bass effects on some DVDs, when played at a fun level, in our fairly large room, will cause our power amps to clip, taking out my tweeters. Better for the built-in sub amp to clip, since there are no tweeters connected to it!

As far as feeling a wind in the room is concerned, with the Klipschorns & Belle alone --- sub off -- the bass wave from the timpani in Fanfare for the Common Man (and some other CDs) causes my pants legs to flap in the breeze, at about 35 wts readable peak output.

[Cody_Mack]

oldbuckster:

I like to be aurically overwhelmed.

JJK

Turning a sub up all the way..........................Just might do that.........Me, I just turn my sub up just to the point you know it's there, I turn it down until you don't hear it, then turn it up to the point where you just hear it............a tip a forum member gave me..........it works for me and my meager set up.....................It's all what you want your system to sound like......My sub never gets turned past half volume..................although let me add this, I think my Heresy's with a good tube unit would NOT need a Sub................again, this is not fact, it's what I think, and someday soon, I'm going to have my buddy bring over his Scott intergrated 299 and we'll see what happens...................JJKIZAK believe me, I wish I didn't need to run a sub.........and when I get Khorns, I am not using a sub, I'll put it away for awhile, and let my ears be my guide.................I also like Blondes, and Red Heads, and Brunettes, and ...........................later

Buckster (et, al),

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I am with you to a point. A couple of weeks after I rolled the tubes into my system, I started feeling something is missing. It was sounding damn fine, but I had the craving for a little more bottom. (Hey, I am a red-blooded malewhat can I say???) So, when the wife wasnt looking, I dragged the HT sub-woofer into my music room and plugged into the Foreplay. I turned the frequency adjustment all the way down and then started turning the volume up. I got the volume where I could hear it good, then back down to where it faded away, then back up slightly. Perfect! This setting adds some of the bottom end that my Heresies are missing, and I think that is all I need, for now. Maybe you dont care for a lot of bass, but the numbers dont lie; Heresies are not known for low bass.

I think the overall sound should be proportional across the board; bass requirements may depend on several factors, with room size and room frequency response, along with amplifier power and speaker size and, of course, personal preference, playing a very big roll in the choice. If I had a very large room with some Khorns, I am sure I would have to analyze the situation differently.

BTW, did I mention Heresies Love Tubes?

[oldbuckster]

oldbuckster:

I like to be aurically overwhelmed.

JJK

Turning a sub up all the way..........................Just might do that.........Me, I just turn my sub up just to the point you know it's there, I turn it down until you don't hear it, then turn it up to the point where you just hear it............a tip a forum member gave me..........it works for me and my meager set up.....................It's all what you want your system to sound like......My sub never gets turned past half volume..................although let me add this, I think my Heresy's with a good tube unit would NOT need a Sub................again, this is not fact, it's what I think, and someday soon, I'm going to have my buddy bring over his Scott intergrated 299 and we'll see what happens...................JJKIZAK believe me, I wish I didn't need to run a sub.........and when I get Khorns, I am not using a sub, I'll put it away for awhile, and let my ears be my guide.................I also like Blondes, and Red Heads, and Brunettes, and ...........................later

Buckster (et, al),

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I am with you to a point. A couple of weeks after I rolled the tubes into my system, I started feeling something is missing. It was sounding damn fine, but I had the craving for a little more bottom. (Hey, I am a red-blooded malewhat can I say???) So, when the wife wasnt looking, I dragged the HT sub-woofer into my music room and plugged into the Foreplay. I turned the frequency adjustment all the way down and then started turning the volume up. I got the volume where I could hear it good, then back down to where it faded away, then back up slightly. Perfect! This setting adds some of the bottom end that my Heresies are missing, and I think that is all I need, for now. Maybe you dont care for a lot of bass, but the numbers dont lie; Heresies are not known for low bass.

I think the overall sound should be proportional across the board; bass requirements may depend on several factors, with room size and room frequency response, along with amplifier power and speaker size and, of course, personal preference, playing a very big roll in the choice. If I had a very large room with some Khorns, I am sure I would have to analyze the situation differently.

BTW, did I mention Heresies Love Tubes?

Not trying to be a wise *** here, but you didn't write anything any different than what I already stated. I know Heresy's are a little lacking in Bass, old point.........Heresy's Love Tubes, I stated I thought with tubes they wouldn't need a sub,old point......I don't care alot about Bass, No, I don't like Bass overpowering everything else, old point......I WISH I HAD A PAIR OF SPEAKERS THAT DIDN"T NEED A SUB.........I have written that on more than one occasion...........TUBES, remember my comments were really based on a comment about Coytee's Jubilees, which to my knowledge, only 2 Lucky Men own, and his question, or statement, about a sub's use with those speakers. When I get a set of Khorns I will put the sub away, that you can qoute me on.................It all boils down to personal taste........some here will tell you I have none..............I think we're saying the same things.............really...........

[oldbuckster]

oldbuckster:

I like to be aurically overwhelmed.

JJK

Turning a sub up all the way..........................Just might do that.........Me, I just turn my sub up just to the point you know it's there, I turn it down until you don't hear it, then turn it up to the point where you just hear it............a tip a forum member gave me..........it works for me and my meager set up.....................It's all what you want your system to sound like......My sub never gets turned past half volume..................although let me add this, I think my Heresy's with a good tube unit would NOT need a Sub................again, this is not fact, it's what I think, and someday soon, I'm going to have my buddy bring over his Scott intergrated 299 and we'll see what happens...................JJKIZAK believe me, I wish I didn't need to run a sub.........and when I get Khorns, I am not using a sub, I'll put it away for awhile, and let my ears be my guide.................I also like Blondes, and Red Heads, and Brunettes, and ...........................later

Buckster (et, al),

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I am with you to a point. A couple of weeks after I rolled the tubes into my system, I started feeling something is missing. It was sounding damn fine, but I had the craving for a little more bottom. (Hey, I am a red-blooded malewhat can I say???) So, when the wife wasnt looking, I dragged the HT sub-woofer into my music room and plugged into the Foreplay. I turned the frequency adjustment all the way down and then started turning the volume up. I got the volume where I could hear it good, then back down to where it faded away, then back up slightly. Perfect! This setting adds some of the bottom end that my Heresies are missing, and I think that is all I need, for now. Maybe you dont care for a lot of bass, but the numbers dont lie; Heresies are not known for low bass.

I think the overall sound should be proportional across the board; bass requirements may depend on several factors, with room size and room frequency response, along with amplifier power and speaker size and, of course, personal preference, playing a very big roll in the choice. If I had a very large room with some Khorns, I am sure I would have to analyze the situation differently.

BTW, did I mention Heresies Love Tubes?

Not trying to be a wise *** here, but you didn't write anything any different than what I already stated. I know Heresy's are a little lacking in Bass, old point.........Heresy's Love Tubes, I stated I thought with tubes they wouldn't need a sub,old point......I don't care alot about Bass, No, I don't like Bass overpowering everything else, old point......I WISH I HAD A PAIR OF SPEAKERS THAT DIDN"T NEED A SUB.........I have written that on more than one occasion...........TUBES, remember my comments were really based on a comment about Coytee's Jubilees, which to my knowledge, only 2 Lucky Men own, and his question, or statement, about a sub's use with those speakers. When I get a set of Khorns I will put the sub away, that you can qoute me on.................It all boils down to personal taste........some here will tell you I have none..............I think we're saying the same things.............really...........I'm just a old fart, not an expert.....what do I know?

[DrWho]

No, but I guess I can see how it can be taken the wrong way...

yes ...???

I would justify the comment by pointing out that every piece of audio equipment has some level of distortion...do we throw out our squakers because they're distorted? What about the tweeters?

It has always been my experience that a properly integrated subwoofer will improve the clarity of the midrange. The only exception resulting from issues with the original recording itself. Sometimes it can be a real pain or even impossible to achieve "proper integration" but that's a slightly different issue...

It's all about building your system around the music to which you listen. If your music doesn't have content below the cutoff of your mains, then why in the world bother with a subwoofer? [*-)]

Btw, if you play it loud enough a snare drum will get your pant legs a flapping...you'll probably want ear protection though since it feels like your rib cage is being snapped in half [H] The point being that it doesn't have to be very low in frequency to get stuff moving around.