200 vs 400 watts per channel

[capo72]

if I had the money, I'd buy those 1000 watt McIntosh power units......Do I need that much power???

You would if you were running McIntosh speakers []

[capo72]

oops, double post

[Colin]

200 watts into what load? 8-ohms? What is the output into 4-ohms? Double?

I would rather have 100 watts into 8-ohms that doubles with a 4-ohm load = better and tighter bass control.

If you play much longer than 1 hour over 100-db SPL at your listening seat, you can start minor damage to your ears.

On the Pass X250, nothing, at any volume, on big ole horns used even ¼ of the power. The unit always stayed with Class A operation (about 75 watts).

[IndyKlipschFan]

I did, 40 amps just to the plugs in the audio room. Yes, I paid for it, but in the long run no problems at all. I also did this separate for my Karaoke system 40 amps.. and lights.. 40 amps.

My electrician looked at me funny as I tried to explain it to him too. I am sure I do not pull amps at this level at any time, not even close. But no cross talks or hum or a chance at doing anything bad into my system if ti needed more juice was my idea here. And nice to have "dedicated plugs" just for that purpose too.

So far, so good.

[jamesV]

http://ampservice.de/splcalc.php?sensv1=98&spl1=120&pow1=2&calculate=Calculate〈=e

Here is a calculator that lets you put in speaker sensitivity as well as desired sound levels and will tell you how much power you need.

So with this calculator is it right that I would only need 100 wpc to reach 120db for the 83's?

[TheEAR]

DrWHO,

As you know Sunfire amps are very efficient,most amps convert a small percentage of the drawn power into output.Bob Craver's designs are fully proven,tough and great sounding.I too was sceptic about these low consumption figures.

The amps can draw much more than an outlet will supply,so they state time limited basis(peaks and short bursts).The full rated power will never be achieved using a standard 15A outlet.Even then,these amps have the juice to motivate panel speakers that are horribly inefficient,Klipsch speakers are a joke to drive for any half non BS amp.And Sunfire amps are among the better ones made.

I say the buyer better get the 400W PC amp,even if it may NEVER be used.And with larger Klipsch speakers none of you folks will ever touch the 200W mark ...even on peaks.I hope you realise this,again unless your hearing aids have dead cells and no longer work.Even then,it will be LOUD.

[merkin]

So your saying that I need to put in larger breakers, or run a dedicated line to the power outlets some how? I have 20 amp breakers now. Most of the time the only thing runing on this circuit is the receiver and DVD. My projector is on another breaker. Wouldn't I only reach the max drawing power if all 7 channels were producing 200 watts at the same time. Do you ever load all 7 channels with that much power at the same time? I guess I need to know more about electronics and electrical wiring. Or if I get it should I just plug it in and hope for the best?

[IndyKlipschFan]

20 amp is fine..they key is your also dedicated too so say your system is not on another one with a string of can lights with cheap dimmers.. can u say humm....

[TheEAR]

merkin,

NO,I was talking to DrWho,ashe was pointing at the draw of amps.

In reality you will not even be close to needing the whole 15AMPS even on the loudest eardrum tearing passages in the most unreal move Hollywood has ever released with the fakest explosions. [] As long as you have a dedicated line(true 15AMPS)for your power amp you are A ok.

We are not in a pro installation where each component gets all the juice it may ever draw(on paper).At home,with Klipsch speakers you will be hard pressed to make a Sunfire(any Sunfire)draw more than 800W from the mains.

If you had inefficient panel speakers then I would recommend a line capable of 20AMPS and even to use very powerful monoblocks each on a separate 15-20AMPS line.

Most people run all components from a single 15AMP line.And for home use,it does the job.

FYI I have eight 15AMP lines and four 20AMP lines for audio,in one room and the same for my small room(Klipsch).As the lines are shared(between rooms)as I will never listen to two systems at the same time.This is of course pure overkill,just for the YES I have more power than you case and to be able to satisfy my craze.

[Buckeye_Nut]

You'll never get 400 watts per channel from your home. Dynamic performance is what's most important, not total watts.

This is to add to arthurs statement a little bit. Im no electrical wizzard, but this is my understanding as it relates to the power available in your home.

For example, if a receiver was rated at 130watts/channel x7 all channels driven, it would consume 2200 watts to achieve it, but wall outlets are limited to 120x15=1800 watts!! Because the IEC mandates limit power recepticles to 15amps for safety, you'll need two power cords run on two separate dedicated circuits in your home. And that's just to achieve 130watts X 7!! To achieve 400watts per channel X 7, you're going to need to make some pretty extensive electrical upgrades in your home. The reality is as Arthur has already stated, and that is that you'll never use or need that much power in a typical practical application.

[jacksonbart]

I did, 40 amps just to the plugs in the audio room. Yes, I paid for it, but in the long run no problems at all. I also did this separate for my Karaoke system 40 amps.. and lights.. 40 amps.

My electrician looked at me funny as I tried to explain it to him too. I am sure I do not pull amps at this level at any time, not even close. But no cross talks or hum or a chance at doing anything bad into my system if ti needed more juice was my idea here. And nice to have "dedicated plugs" just for that purpose too.

So far, so good.

Indy, your very smart and given your room, its a good investment. I love the subsequent posts from those that poo poo receivers as sucking, yet say 'oh 15 amps is enough' when the limiting factor from a multi channel amp/ receiver is the wall plug. But what ever most of them work for the biz.

[oldbuckster]

Thanks everyone for your input. I'm not going to take the plunge just yet I was kind of keeping my eye on Audiogone for a used model. Then debating going with the 5 channel amp to try it first and just run my rear centers off the denon. Or maybe if your going to go bear, go grizzly, and get the 7 channel model. I've seen some come up once in a while. My nearest sunfire dealer I can find is Chicago and that is 3 hrs away. Oldbuckster do you have the oldman's disease and can't sleep in the morning or have you just been up all night?

Two problems really...........I am always up early......and ....... I don't sleep well at all lately, Lot on my old mind, besides,..............I'll Sleep when I'm Dead...........Stereos are like cars......You Never have Enough Power..........EH.!!!!!!!!!!!!.......Good Luck with your choice...............Nice Mustang..............Had the thrill of driving a Stage 3 Rousch Mustang......Yeah Baby...She Rocked...Wicked Cars...Love the Supercharged Engine...would consider owning one of those Bad Boys.........Cars and Stereo's bad ,bad,bad habits..................[]

[oldbuckster]

Old Indy has a fine Home Theatre set-up .................. Top Notch.....would love to hear that Bad Boy..........He did it right, and that is a FINE example of how and what to do.............Hey Indy.........the Jets give Ya' a scare???????

[Spkrdctr]

OK guys, you all have to remember that your math calculations are for RMS (constant) power, not music power. To actually play music or movies at a level that draws a constant 15 amps you need very inefficient speakers or massive volume requirements. Remember the breaker will not trip under quick surge spikes (like an electrical motor). So, your Sunfire mega buck, high end amp that is designed to transfer massive power to the speakers, will pull over, thats right, over 15 amps in a spike and still not trip the breaker. So, the Sunfire 400 watt X 7 is a killer system. All of those little spikes that would draw over 15amps are called....wait for it......here it comes........HEADROOM!!! Yeehaw! This stuff is fun! So, the amp will deliver the goods and handle spikes, without even breaking a sweat.

I personally would run a 20 amp line to a Sunfire just because it deserves it. You don't buy top end only to mistreat it, and 15 doesn't do it justice.

[Guest " "]

http://ampservice.de/splcalc.php?sensv1=98&spl1=120&pow1=2&calculate=Calculate〈=e

Here is a calculator that lets you put in speaker sensitivity as well as desired sound levels and will tell you how much power you need.

So with this calculator is it right that I would only need 100 wpc to reach 120db for the 83's?

For the spl/db/watts drill...yes.

I posted a Klipsch provided graph a few weeks ago that also intorduced "distortion" and "driver failure" as 2 other factors.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Old Indy has a fine Home Theatre set-up .................. Top Notch.....would love to hear that Bad Boy..........He did it right, and that is a FINE example of how and what to do.............Hey Indy.........the Jets give Ya' a scare???????

Yes scared the S%#) out of me.. But a win is a win.. Bring on 0- 4 Tenn this weekend.. wooo hoooo we just might be 5-0 what a great start that would be.. Go Colts..

Nothing like actually having a good party and the home team winning too..

Thanks for the compliments too.

[skonopa]

Yes it will hold true,I use a Denon 4806 as PREAMP in a smaller system I have,and outboard amps...as yes amps.The preamp section is the Denon while not of audiophile grade(ultimate transparency and inaudible operation)is quite good in quality.

So yes the Denon will match well with the Sunfire in a prepro/power amp setup.

no no and no,I never said the Denon as a preamp is not a good match with Sunfire,it will do fine.SImply its internal amps are several steps down from Sunfire power amps.

I have to second this, as I am using a Denon AVR3802 as a pre/pro in front of a B&K seven channel - 200 watts/channel amp (from what I can tell, B&K is very comparable to the Sunfire gear). This setup sounds very good to me, and I love it. Yes, it will be nice to eventually upgrade to a "real" pre/pro, but the Denon seems to be doing an excellent job, plus it does have some nice features that I like, such as being to run two sets of surrounds (I have a pair of RF-5s as 'A' surrounds, and RS-7s as 'B' surrounds).

But yes, indeed, the Sunfire (and in my case, B&K) amps are definitly many steps up from the built-in amps of the Denon reciever.

[TheEAR]

Amplifiers do have an impact of overall sound quality.Stereo Review at one time claimed(forgot who was the author of the article)all amps(of similar design,eg. solid state) sound the same(or close).Stereo review was also a mag known for reviewing Bose one time too many and axed on mid-fi readers.

This is only close to the truth if the load is optimal.Speakers present sometimes difficult loads and the load will change with frequency. Low cost amps have poor power supply designs and little headroom.Often crumbling under more difficult load.Plus the output stage uses cheapo components,leading to inferior sound.

To say all amps sound the same is to live in a imaginary world,where loads are easy and linear.All amps sound different in fact,under load in the real world.And while the changes are sometimes very minute,switching from a lower cost receiver amp to a high quality outboard one can be of major importance.

[DrWho]

Here's my inexperienced take on the issue (based on what we're doing in class right now):

Just because RMS is an "average" doesn't mean that it's an average over a long period of time. I was also under the impression that electrical codes prohibit any device from pulling more than its rated power out of the wall. An amplifier is only a voltage regulating device and the max voltage is limited by the power supply. The maximum power transfer will occur with a single known load which will also determine the maximum current draw.

So when an amplifier delivers more power than it draws, the only way this can occur is if energy is somehow stored in the amplifier. The typical solution is a bank of capacitors, which are great for single short peaks. But if the second transient comes along before the caps recharge, then you're in a situation where there isn't enough current available and it clips the transient. I have no doubt the Sunfire engineers have mastered the art of this balancing act, but the fact remains that they're not breaking the laws of physics. The "400W" from these amplifiers is not going to sound the same as an amplifier actually capable of delevering a consistent 400W.

Headroom is nice, but it's even better when it's linear []

All that said, I'm still in the camp that thinks it's a waste to go insane on the amplification when the speakers and room are responsible for levels of distortion that are on the order of several magnitudes larger.

I vote for the smaller amp and use the savings towards aesthetically acceptable acoustical treatment.

[Cal Blacksmith]

All this hub bub over the size of the lines feeding the wall

outlet is a tempest in a tea pot!

FOLKS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HOME AUDIO HERE! We are not trying to fill a 400

person theater! It may sound like HERESY here but I am running (all on one 20

amp circuit) my projector, HT receiver, 100wpc stereo amp, sub, HTPC, DVD

player and a few lights! The circuit breaker has never tripped and we listen to

movies at a volume that makes a few people wince at the explosions etc!

If you want to pull in a separate feed from the power pole and only use it to

run a SET amp on, BE MY GUEST but it isn't necessary!