Thorens in the house

[kev313]

A bit more pieces taken off and the mirror can be put back on. Someone has obviously been in here before as you can tell from the fat black marker sketchings on the motot connections. Thorens didn't usually need these to tell them which wires went where[]

I like disassembling since you can really clean things well. It's looking pretty nice in this picture now.

I was told this was purchased from a dealer who set it up, it had very little use and no mention was made of any repairs...hmmmmm.

That is crappy.

[colterphoto1]

Scott- very nice closeup photos of the setup procedure. Guys- Scott provided me with a set of photo prints with notes in his own wizardly handwriting on how to do the setup. AND a full copy of the owners manual off the internet AND the pages from the electrical troubleshooting area of he tech manual he used.

Never in my life have I experienced such help from a guy I've never met. Just incredible. I've played all kinds of tunes on the TT today and it's just awesome. I can't believe the frequency response and dynamics. This blows my Technics 1700 away.

Any help on making one of those cork platter boards and can I just use my watco rejuvenating oil on the base?

M

[lwhaples]

Scott,again great job!

Michael, Still enjoying? Worth it? Hope so,Love my vinyl.

Larry

[jt1stcav]

Fantastic work, Scott...very impressive![Y] As others have mentioned, you too, are a credit to this forum. We're glad you're here!

[pauln]

Glad to see it worked out. I warned in the original thread that the B&O is high compliance (30, made for a light arm). This means it is very easy for the vinal walls to push the stylus around. On the higher mass arm it was probably struggling because it was too easy. It is obvious that a too stiff a stylus on a light arm will have trouble; it's more difficult to see the problem with a loose stylus on a heavy arm. I think the effect might be too much energy load in the stylus with little effective path to bleed it off though the arm. This could make for trouble in the high end that might sound 'grainy'.

It is very good and expensive - will make someone very happy if they have the right table and arm for it.

[colterphoto1]

Hi gang, little bumperio for Scott's excellent workmanship and descriptive photos.

I heard from Eric 6foot8 today and he was kind enough to apologize for the difficulties I had getting the Thorens up and running. Honestly thought maybe he'd written to chew me out again- but it wasn't the case- he's an upstanding guy. He honestly wanted to make things right between us and I really appreciate his offer.

I'm sorry it got ugly there when I bought the unit. I was doing everything I could to get it running, but I'm not knowledgeable and got quickly frustrated. I was feeling a bit ripped off and some of my comments about Eric and the Thorens' condition were unwarranted and I'm sorry for making such statements.

What I wanted to do in the spirit of Forum Brotherhood would be to send this B&O MME 20EN cartridge to someone who could really use it. I think it's in good condition but have to magnifier to check it out. Thebes has first dibs, but we're checking to see if it is a good match. So send in your turntable/tonearm specs and Scott will be the judge on who will receive this cartridge.

Michael

[colterphoto1]

Re the comment about the Thorens never have been repaired before- I edited my entry on page 2, but here it is again.

Eric told me the only work that he knew of was the addition of the new

interconnects. He purchased it from a dealer and I'd assumed that it

was new. Perhaps a previous owner had some work done that Eric did not

know about?

[Mike Lindsey]

Hi Michael,

I'm glad to hear you patched things up with Eric. I have personally met the man and he is a decent person. I'm sure he was just as frustrated as you were.

Very nice offer on the B&O cart. I posted the specs in the "Listening to Turntables" thread that is no more. Here is some information on it:

MMC 20 Cartridges

Prior to the release of MMC1 - 5 cartridges, Bang & Olufsen had the following MMC range of combined styli and cartridges:

MMC cartridges were available with standard ½" mounting brackets, or with easy plug-in, lightweight connectors. These enabled you to mount MMC cartridges onto non-Bang & Olufsen arms. The cartridges plugged directly into Beogram pickup arms without additional mounting gear

MMC 20 S was a stereo cartridge with a spherical framed diamond

MMC 20 E was fitted with a framed elliptical diamond which has a high polish

MMC 20EN had a naked elliptical diamond, mounted on a tiny tapered cantilever

MMC 20 CL utilised a Contact Line naked diamond mounted on a single crystal sapphire cantilever. This shape ensures maximum groove contact. This was the most highly-specified cartridge in the MMC 20 range

In 1958, Bang & Olufsen introduced the first stereo pickup cartridge ever made in Europe. This was called the SP1. Since then, many design innovations and the creative use of new materials have kept B&O's cartridges at the forefront of audio technology. By 1979 - 80, Bang & Olufsen's cartridges were represented by the MMC 20 series. MMC stands for 'Moving Micro-Cross'; the patented moving-iron principle upon which all B&O cartridges were based. This unique system employed a cross-shaped armature which, among other advantages, guaranteed exceptional stereo separation since each channel moves on a separate axis.

The job of any pickup cartridge is to transform the record's physical profile (groove modulation) into corresponding electrical signals (which are then amplified or enlarged by the amplifier and turned into audible sound waves by the loudspeaker.

A cartridge must perform three separate and exacting tasks if it is to do this job successfully. It must function mechanically (the movements of the stylus in the groove); it must function magnetically (using the physical movements to create changes in a magnetic field); and it must function electrically (using the changes in magnetic flux to generate an electrical current). At each stage, one type of energy is transferred into another, quite different, type. And the transfer must be perfect, with no energy lost and none added from extraneous sources.

No cartridge will ever reach this ideal unless the Laws of Physics can be repealed. However, by understanding the relationships between the three transfer stages and continually applying refined engineering techniques, B&O's belief was that each stage of cartridge improvement would bring each successive cartridge closer to the ideal. The MMC20 series therefore represented the closest that modern technology at that time, could possibly afford.

MMC20S was a stereo cartridge with a spherical framed diamond. Recommended tracking force: 1,5g; Effective Tip Mass: 0,5mg

MMC20E was fitted with a framed elliptical diamond with a very high polish. Recommended tracking force: 1,5g; Effective Tip Mass: 0,5mg

MMC20EN had a naked elliptical diamond, mounted on a tiny, tapered cantilever. Recommended tracking force: 1,2g; Effective Tip Mass: 0,4mg

MMC20CL utilised a Contact Line naked diamond mounted on a single crystal sapphire cantilever. This shape ensured optimum groove contact. Recommended tracking force: 1,0g; Effective Tip Mass: 0,3mg

Record wear and the cartridge

If you take music seriously the value of your record collection is likely to be high. Many of your records are likely to be irreplaceable. You will also know that the signals pressed into your vinyl discs are very fragile indeed. The pickup cartridge can be the disc's worse enemy since an ill-suited cartridge can mark a record for life in a single play.

While B&O is aware that cartridge specifications are inter-related, their research shows consistently that Effective Tip Mass (ETM) is one of the major factors affecting record wear. ETM is the equivalent of the amount of inertia the groove 'sees' in moving or accelerating the stylus tip. Consequently, the higher the ETM value, the higher the force required for a given constant acceleration. Obviously, more force results in more wear.

Three elements contribute to ETM. The stylus tip (diamond) contributes with its entire weight and mass. The armature contributes between 5 - 20% of its weight and mass; the cantilever around 30%. B&O has been able to reduce ETM substantially by refining these elements and building them into an integrated unit. The result is a system which not only reduces damage to the groove walls dramatically, but also provides exceptional performance at all frequencies.

Bang & Olufsen cartridges have always been highly acclaimed for their low ETM values. The ETM of the MMC 20CL is a mere 0,3mg and in the standard MMC 20 range,, only 0,5mg.

MMC cartridges were manufactured by Bang & Olufsen as totally integrated units. This means that the elements were matched, balanced and sealed at the factory. Using a computer-supported testing programme,, each sealed unit was meticulously tested and it's performance information automatically registered and packed with each cartridge. The information given included output voltage, relative voltage output (channel balance), channel separation and frequency response. Individually-calibrated frequency response curves were also supplied with the higher-specified MMC 20CL cartridges.

Mike

[colterphoto1]

really, they deleted that thread?

Thanks for posting the tech data.

[scott0527]

Glad to see it worked out. I warned in the original thread that the B&O is high compliance (30, made for a light arm). This means it is very easy for the vinal walls to push the stylus around. On the higher mass arm it was probably struggling because it was too easy. It is obvious that a too stiff a stylus on a light arm will have trouble; it's more difficult to see the problem with a loose stylus on a heavy arm. I think the effect might be too much energy load in the stylus with little effective path to bleed it off though the arm. This could make for trouble in the high end that might sound 'grainy'.

It is very good and expensive - will make someone very happy if they have the right table and arm for it.

I remember when you mentioned that Paul. Good description of the problem too.

Any of you Music Hall owners might want to give this cartridge a try(thanks to CP1's offer). Who else has light arms?

[lwhaples]

Michael,you da man! Glad hear things have worked out all around.Nice offer on the cartridge.

Larry

[6foot8]

Hi gang, little bumperio for Scott's excellent workmanship and descriptive photos.

I heard from Eric 6foot8 today and he was kind enough to apologize for the difficulties I had getting the Thorens up and running. Honestly thought maybe he'd written to chew me out again- but it wasn't the case- he's an upstanding guy. He honestly wanted to make things right between us and I really appreciate his offer.

I'm sorry it got ugly there when I bought the unit. I was doing everything I could to get it running, but I'm not knowledgeable and got quickly frustrated. I was feeling a bit ripped off and some of my comments about Eric and the Thorens' condition were unwarranted and I'm sorry for making such statements.

What I wanted to do in the spirit of Forum Brotherhood would be to send this B&O MME 20EN cartridge to someone who could really use it. I think it's in good condition but have to magnifier to check it out. Thebes has first dibs, but we're checking to see if it is a good match. So send in your turntable/tonearm specs and Scott will be the judge on who will receive this cartridge.

Michael

Hey my login and password still works. Yes I am very sorry too that this table turned out to need some work. I bought it used from a dealer in 1982 so it was a few years old at the time, but I was unaware it had been gone into until I had the interconnects upgraded in the mid 1990's. I would never have sold it if I had known it had issues. Like I said before it had almost no use from about 1996 when I moved until I sold it. I had been used a few times to record some of my favorite songs which I can't get on CD but had been played only at low levels for recording. It really seemed ok to me.

Michael I am sending out a little something in today's mail to help out with the troubles you have had. I really hope it works well for you now. I guess the reason I got so angry was that I honestly believed I sold you somehting that worked fine...it was quite embarassing for me. I would never risk my reputation or my word over a relatively small amount of money for people on this forum I have come to like and respect...and I hope you believe that.

Anyways, I hope you are in love with the Thorens now!

Eric

[Cal Blacksmith]

Michael, you have a PM

[colterphoto1]

In all the hubbub surrounding the Turntable, I'd nearly forgotten and I've just been gently reminded of another great favor done for my by a brother Forum Member.

Cal Blacksmith blacksmithed (blacksmote?) a custom projector bracket for my Canon projector. It's very cool, mounts very tightly to the 8' ceiling in my gallery, and saved big buck in buying the Canon model and height from using one of the ball joint models.

It's taken me a while to get around to mounting it and I need to get a few more mini parts, but look for another big Thanks post on the HT forum.

Michael

[colterphoto1]

Oh, well that worked out very cooly!

Cal Blacksmith has a B&O turntable and needs a cartridge for it! So I'll send him the one that came with my Thorens as a return favor for him building my PJ mount for me.

Is this Karmic or what?

M

[Mike Lindsey]

Very nice! That cartridge should sound outstanding with a B&O table.

Mike

[colterphoto1]

Very nice! That cartridge should sound outstanding with a B&O table.

Mike

DING DING DING DING

we have WINNERS all the way around people!

[Travis In Austin]

Hi gang, little bumperio for Scott's excellent workmanship and descriptive photos.

I heard from Eric 6foot8 today and he was kind enough to apologize for the difficulties I had getting the Thorens up and running. Honestly thought maybe he'd written to chew me out again- but it wasn't the case- he's an upstanding guy. He honestly wanted to make things right between us and I really appreciate his offer.

I'm sorry it got ugly there when I bought the unit. I was doing everything I could to get it running, but I'm not knowledgeable and got quickly frustrated. I was feeling a bit ripped off and some of my comments about Eric and the Thorens' condition were unwarranted and I'm sorry for making such statements.

What I wanted to do in the spirit of Forum Brotherhood would be to send this B&O MME 20EN cartridge to someone who could really use it. I think it's in good condition but have to magnifier to check it out. Thebes has first dibs, but we're checking to see if it is a good match. So send in your turntable/tonearm specs and Scott will be the judge on who will receive this cartridge.

Michael

Hey my login and password still works. Yes I am very sorry too that this table turned out to need some work. I bought it used from a dealer in 1982 so it was a few years old at the time, but I was unaware it had been gone into until I had the interconnects upgraded in the mid 1990's. I would never have sold it if I had known it had issues. Like I said before it had almost no use from about 1996 when I moved until I sold it. I had been used a few times to record some of my favorite songs which I can't get on CD but had been played only at low levels for recording. It really seemed ok to me.

Michael I am sending out a little something in today's mail to help out with the troubles you have had. I really hope it works well for you now. I guess the reason I got so angry was that I honestly believed I sold you somehting that worked fine...it was quite embarassing for me. I would never risk my reputation or my word over a relatively small amount of money for people on this forum I have come to like and respect...and I hope you believe that.

Anyways, I hope you are in love with the Thorens now!

Eric

Michael and Eric,

I am so glad to hear that Michael has ended up with a truly enjoyable table. I am also glad to hear that this transaction ended up with everyone being happy with the outcome.

Travis

[scott0527]

Oh, well that worked out very cooly!

Cal Blacksmith has a B&O turntable and needs a cartridge for it! So I'll send him the one that came with my Thorens as a return favor for him building my PJ mount for me.

Is this Karmic or what?

M

Make sure Wayne's B&O can use that B&O cartridge first. I know that sounds kind of silly but B&O turntables/arms used a special proprietary cartridge mount unlike all other cartridges. The B&O cartridge that Michael has is a standard 1/2" mount cartrdige body that wouldn't work with most B&O turntable arms.

[rplace]

If that cartridge will not work for Cal and you guys think it is a good match with Music Hall arms, keep GaryMD in mind. Not sure if he is reading this thread, but I know he was considering a new cartridge for his MH in his 2nd listening room. I was gonna lend him my Dynavector 20X but ended up selling it to TigerWoodKH.