alternative designs- why go jubilee?

[bodcaw boy]

it was just a suggestion. i don't think you realized the gains in the jub lf over the khorn and the khorn is mighty lf horn in and of itself but the jub is a step up.

Hi Roy. I don't mean any disrespect when I say this -- but what I don't like about the idea is that the old current top section (Heritage) falls short when compared to the sound you get with the better drivers and tractrix midhorn. The jub LF section is undoubtably fantastic, but I see no point in plopping that shrill horn and raspy tweeter on top of her. Everyone likes better bottom to top bass, but given a choice I'll take a better midrange and treble. Of course, that's just me -- and someone is always reminding me that I'm just one guy in one room.

no problemo. i understand.

if you think $6000 to $7000 was high man you wouldn't like this price and for a smaller horn. on our horns, the bigger they get, they better they work. i still think for ultimate, it is what miketn and coyotee-o have, a 402 and jub with electronic crossovers with of couse, delay.

I actually don't have a problem with the price of the Jubilee top section. I do think the price for the unfinished bottom sections is too high.

I am curious about how something like that K-402 works in a smaller room. I mean, whatever happened to controlled directivity..

actually, the smaller rooms benefit from the larger horns since they will tend to keep more of the off-axis stuff off the walls.

Check your mail in a bit.

i got it while i was on the lake and we will see what we can do about that situation.

[bodcaw boy]

Dean,

"I am curious about how something like that K-402 works in a smaller room. I mean, whatever happened to controlled directivity.."

From what Roy has said the K-402 is a CD horn... one that also happens to have a Tractrix flare. I'd love to play around with them sometime but three of them up front would be a couple of inches wider then my room.

Roy,

Do you have any other CD/Tractrix horns that might be a touch smaller?

Shawn

yep it's called the k-510. i believe it is 15X9.

[bodcaw boy]

A little while before I went to The Hope Pilgrimage this year I had been contemplating trying a Two Way (Or Possibly a Co-Ax Driver such as D-Man is using) using the Klipschorn's Woofer with a suitable High Frequency Driver/Horn. Time has brought about advances in Technology and Design in Drivers and Horns and the ability to Test and Verify the System(TEF and Other test Equipment) as a whole as far as Smooth Frequency Response and what I believe is very important is the ability to Measure/Visualize the Phase Response of a Systems Individual Componets as well as the Total System Behavior in the Frequency, Time and Distortion Domains. So with these points in mind I wanted to see just what was possible in sound reproduction and so I started investigating my options.

So I get to Hope and for the first Time I get to hear the Jubilee with the K402/K69-A Top End so needless to say I was very interested in the High Frequency Horn and Drivers Performance. I've said it before " The K402/K69-A Horn is a Very Good Reproducer of Sound" and as far as integrating into a small room enviroment it might be a large horn physically but it is so well behaved in it's dispersion that I couldn't imagine a better horn for even a small enviroment performance wise anyway with the technology available today.

So here I am in Hope and the First Time I see the Jubilee it is in the Anechoic Chamber were Roy is testing and tweaking the passive crossover for the Demo To Come Later. So I'm lucky enough to spend a few minutes talking with Roy and of course with my mind thinking Two Way/Klipschorn I asked Roy wouldn't the K402/K69-A work good with the Klipschorn Woofer and he said yes so at this time I'm thinking this might be the option I've been looking for with my Klipschorns.

So next day we are at the Plant and Trey and Others are going to start breaking us up into groups to Tour the Plants different Operation Sections and so I took advantage of this oportunity to Head to the Lab to hear the Jubilee that Roy had setup for us and hopefully talk with him more. (I was actually lucky enough to spend what seemed like around an Hour or so with just Roy and myself listening to the Jubilee and talking with Roy about different design goals of speakers in general and the Jubilee particulary.) So with the direction I think I'm heading with changes to my Klipschorns I'm paying special attention to the High Frequency K402 Horns dispersion and reproduction of sound and to say I was happy with what I heard is a real understatement! The problem is when I began to listen to the total sound reproduction I realized very quickly that The Detail and Authority (ie: Clarity, Fine Detail, and Dynamic Impact is Second to None that I Have Ever Heard) with which the Jubilee reproduced sound was exceptional and the best I have ever heard. Just so every one knows Vocals is where I begin with sound and if good Vocal reproduction isn't there then I'm not going to be happy, so Just to make another point that I feel is very important is that the Jubilee with the K402/K69-A is VERY! VERY! Good with the reproduction of Vocals IMHO.

So now with all the above experiences I realized my direction for the Klipschorns had changed and to obtain the Quality of Reproduction In Sound I heard in Hope meant that I would be buying the Jubilee with K402/K69-A and going with an Electronic Crossover (for several reasons but mainly for the Time Delay Option for the ultimate in sound. Once you spend time with the system you can definitly hear the advantage of being able to also use Time and it's window of adjustment as one of the variables in the Blending of the High and Low Frequency Horns.

I would also like to say for those that are thinking of owning the Jubilee. If the Reproduction of Sound in your home is an important pleasure for you then I believe the Jubilee is a great deal at this time! Some might make the mistake of thinking that I just had plenty of money to spend when I bought the Jubilee but that just wasn't the case. Buying the Jubilee was a big leap for me but what I've come to realize for myself is that I have spent many years in this hobby and for me it has always held a special interest for me so I'm at a point in life were I say to myself life's short so lets relook were I'm going with my system and what I want from it and so I found a way to reprioritize my desires and things I owned and so I sold several things to help offset the cost of the Jubilees. Owning the Jubilee isn't any different than owning boats, motorcycles, RTVs and ETC........... it's just more about deciding were you get the most pleasure from our different interest. For a little different way of looking at things I submit owning Jubilees could be a way to save alot of money in the long run because for the most part it cost alot of money to buy and sell equipment so to buy into one of the Absolute Best Reproducers of Sound could save you money in the long run and be giving you alot of pleasure in the long run.

mike tn[]

That's it: "BUY JUBILEEs and SAVE MONEY!!!!!![]"

yeah but miketn, do you like the speakers.........[]

[jwc]

This thread has turned into "explore the jubilee" so I am going to float some questions.

I was taking a look at the curves comparing the Jubilee (red) and Khorn (black) measured from a corner.

Now I love to take wild stabs. Some of you may laugh at my questions but this is how we learn.

I was wondering if Roy or someone could comment on the "dip" just after 200Hz on the Jubilee. My clone does the same thing. Could this be explained from a "fold" somewhere in the horn. I was plausing the idea that it could be the back turn of the horn. I also noted that I have the small dip at about 350Hz.

The same results are seen below 100Hz. The horn is very powerful in the 100Hz range. There is about a - 6-7dB at 60Hz and about - 8-9dB at 45Hz.

There is also the little dip around 40Hz.

jc

[jwc]

Here is mine showing the same type results. Now the total SPL in mine is "relative" only. I'm sure mine isn't as much total SPL as the real deal.

This particular is the clone in the corner with a first order network to make it start to roll off just before 1000Hz. W/O the network...it looks the same going over 1000hz.

Take a look at the dips. Very similar. Now this RTA has "skipped" frequencies so it looks choppy.

So I'm wondering...again....what causes the dips?....folds in the horn?

jc

[DrWho]

My understanding is that if the problem is from reflections in curves,

then you would have to rationalize it by wavelength...200Hz is around

5.5 feet, so to have any interference patterns you would need some path

length differences on the order of 2.5 feet or so? I've not traced the

walls on the Jubilee design, but I don't think they come close to 2.5

feet difference from any perspective???

I would be more inclined to blaim the wiggly frequency response on

impedance mismatches - which are probably the result of difficult to

predict behavior in the bends - complicated by the path length of the

horn being too short? I think I remember reading something along those

lines, but I thought the wiggling gets worse the lower you go...

I also wonder if it might not be from how the speaker "releases the

sound bubble" - as Roy likes to put it. The horizontal polar response

of the speaker is really wierd in the 200-300Hz region and the vertical

is wierd in the 300-500Hz region. So obviously there is a lot going on

at those frequencies (which would imply reflections and crap, but I'm

just not seeing it...)

[JBryan]

Not to get too far OT but is there any benefit to measuring frequencies at 100-115dB as opposed to say, 80-95dB?

Thanks

[sfogg]

Not really. You get further away from the noise floor of your room but are more likely to see distortion and power compression (both in the speaker and in the mic), and potentially buzzing/rattling things in your room influencing the measurements.

Shawn

[jwc]

"complicated by the path length of the horn being too short?"

Well, the physical horn is 140cm. The calculated horn is 191cm. The actual mouth being the "room". I don't understand the significance of "shortening" it to 140cm instead of say 155cm. Who has a good article for this?

I see your point about impedance swings possibly causing the dips so when I get home...I guess I should look at the impedance curves...However....I don't recall any impedance swings to account for the response that I am seeing.

The Back turn of the jub bin is the really one area that I don't have the greatest grasp for. The other turns are easy for my me to visualize. I will probably buy some mirrors to check how things are reflected back there.

It doesn't matter the driver I put in there. Same type of phenomenon. I didn't post the third set of drivers I put in there which was the cheaper Pioneer ones that I think BFDay has in his clone. They are a tad weaker under 100Hz and drop after 350Hz. However, the original Pioneers I have and the E. Kappas look pretty similar except the Kappas don't have the low end.

So......It's the horn...IMO. I would like to be able to "fix" the drop after the 200Hz out of principle only....It sounds good otherwise.

jc

[D-MAN]

My opinion is that that 200Hz dip is a consequence of the driver FRAME, believe it or not. It is not likely that the horn itself has any detrimental behavior at 200Hz, and this also assumes that it isn't exagerated by room "suckout".

It could also be a reflection from the back chamber in addition to the frame, however, if you look at any speaker specs, they ALWAYS show a dip in the response, and THIS is from the frame reflection(s). See any Eminence speaker for an example...

DM

[jwc]

Dana. What do you mean by "frame"? You mean the physical frame of the driver..... I haven't noticed that on bass reflex stuff

[D-MAN]

Exactly. It presents an insurmountable problem by its existance. Many $$$ of research have gone into the basket! (ha!).

Just look at any curves supplied by the manufacturer. The flatter the response, the more the driver costs, and you can bet its not a stamped frame!

Bass reflex applications tend to cover it up as both sides of the cone are used. A front-loaded horn (infinite baffle) won't, and neither will most "accepted" manufacturers testing methodologies (again an infinite baffle of exceptional size).

DM

[jwc]

If that is the case, I won't be fixing that dip.

So Dana. Do you have any comments/guidelines for how much you can "shorten" the 1/8 space physical horn and still be able to allow the room to make the true mouth.

For instance. I have drawn out a 50Hz Horn with two 10" drivers to match the jub bass bin. I have the throat, Vb, and calculations for annull all figured out. It is a 147cm horn in which the physical horn stops at 124cm. I don't have a guideline for using the room as mouth.

thanks in advance

jc

[PrestonTom]

I am not commenting on the "dip" indicated in the plots provided by Klipsch (it is difficult to know exactly how they measured this output & it is not a trivial measure, even in a ananechoic chamber).

However, you are using a RTA in a real room. At 200 Hz the wavelength is 5 ft, and normally there is little in a room that will effectively absorb, trap or diffuse such a long wavelength. The RTA is putting out a sustained signal ( I asume).

My question is simple: how have you ruled out speaker/room interactions in your measurement? IOW are you measuring standing waves in the room rather than the true output of the speaker? This should be tackled before you entertain more exotic ideas about the culprit.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[DrWho]

As far as the measurements provided by Klipsch - the manner in which they are measured is known and not a variable.

If I might suggest an alternative way to look at the plots...the

so-called "dips" actually have the same efficiency as 600Hz to 1kHz and

80Hz down to around 40Hz (the top and bottom octaves). I would think of

the response more as having peaks at 100, 200, 300, 500 Hz rather than

dips all over the place. In fact, in the active crossover Roy uses with

these speakers, you will see him notching down the peaks at 100 and

200Hz as well as 300 and 500Hz, if I remember correctly (I'm sure about

the bottom two, not the upper two). You can very nearly get the

response to within +-1dB with a little EQ - and not even add any

distortion in the process (since you're cutting, not boosting).

Btw, this is the first time I've ever heard about issues concerning the

basket of drivers...3dB is a crap load of power loss and not something

I can see justified by differences between frames. You're talking on

the order of 4mm difference in excursion by simply changing the

material of the basket (assuming a 15" or dual 12" system playing at

normal levels)....I'm just not seeing the conservation of energy there.

All of my reading has shown that the differences between baskets has

more to do with moving the resonance out of the passband of the driver

- and then making sure it stays damped so that harmonic distortions

don't excite it either.

In the end...I assume the point of discussion is to figure out how one would improve the design to remove the artifacts. While I won't claim the Jubilee or its designers are perfect, I do trust that if it was easily corrected for, then it would have already been taken care of. Of course that doesn't do much in the way of helping someone learn from the mistakes of the experts when designing their own speakers....[]

[Deang]

The dip shows up in all of the various response plots, both in network and out. It is the smallest in the plot where the Jubilee is corner loaded in the chamber -- about 5dB down. It may be exaggerated in your room because you are using different drivers and don't have her seated firmly into the corner. If Delgado and Klipsch couldn't get rid of it then you probably won't either. When you use the mirror, don't forget the smoke -- you need both to get that to work right.

[sfogg]

Dana,

"A front-loaded horn (infinite baffle) won't"

A front loaded horn is rarely an infinite baffle. An infinite baffle

woofer is a woofer that the 'air spring' on the back of the driver has

no effect on the operation of the woofer. That happens either when

there is no enclosure on the back side of the driver (and the backwave

is seperate from the front) or that the sealed enclosure on the back

side of the driver is large enough so that its 'air spring' has no

effect on the operation of the driver. Typically around the point that

the volume of the enclosure becomes bigger then the Vas of the driver.

The sealed chamber on most front loaded horns is usually smaller then

the Vas of the driver and therefor it effects the operation of the

driver.

Shawn

[mikebse2a3]

If I might suggest an alternative way to look at the plots...the so-called "dips" actually have the same efficiency as 600Hz to 1kHz and 80Hz down to around 40Hz (the top and bottom octaves). I would think of the response more as having peaks at 100, 200, 300, 500 Hz rather than dips all over the place. In fact, in the active crossover Roy uses with these speakers, you will see him notching down the peaks at 100 and 200Hz as well as 300 and 500Hz, if I remember correctly (I'm sure about the bottom two, not the upper two). You can very nearly get the response to within +-1dB with a little EQ - and not even add any distortion in the process (since you're cutting, not boosting).
------------------------------------------------------

Mike the only EQ for the Jubilee LF is (-3db @180Hz with a Q=16) and (-3db @ 300Hz with a Q=16).

Other possible causes for Peaks/Dips could involve Wall Flexures/Resonances of the Horn's Panels and also Resonances in the Rear Chamber.

I would also expect due to the finite length of the Horn that interfering reflections from impedance mismatches at the mouth of the horn would be a part of some peaks and dips.

mike tn[]

[jwc]

Yes. The RTA is in a Room and make no claims to its accuracy. All I was noting was that there was similarity to the real Jub and it's "official" curve.

There are room issues I have and I'm sure there are standing waves.

I have placed the mic at 5-6 ft. The curve looks soo good I didn't want to post it. The post here is at 1 meter with the mic on the floor. W/O a bunch of room detection issues...I settled on that measure.

All of this was basically explore what is going on with the jub. I guess I can be more optimistic and call them peaks instead of dips. Even better...everyone seems to think it isn't the horn. I gotta love that.

I just thought it was interesting that the same thing would happen with three different sets of drivers. Including the real drivers...that makes four.

[jwc]

Ok. I seemed to have overlooked the "smoke and mirror" comment....that was a good one. I guess that idea now is "up in smoke".