Tarheel Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Bluesboy came over last night with his 511B horns bolted to a temporary frame and we hooked them up to my Altec 902 drivers. We changed the BEC xover as suggested by Bob and wired everything up. Because I don't have room in the corners to toe in my speakers this arrangement worked out fine. I was able to hear the new components and to toe them in for the first time. What a difference! I am very pleased with the results...the horns and drivers are so much clearer as most of you already know. The nest step is to build the bass bins and Bluesboy has already cut the parts. We have the woofers and I will be ordering Beymas. We will paint the 1" mdf with piano black lacquer and make a new frame that will let the tweeter sit on top of the 511B face frame. There will be no top cabinet. I will sit the xover under the back of the horn...so in other words everything on top of the bass bin will be exposed. I can then move the horn and tweeter as often as I like and try differents placements. Thanks to BEC and Bluesboy! Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Sounds like you are headed in the right direction....enjoy the journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 What kind of bass bins are you building, sealed, ported, horn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Bluesboy came over last night with his 511B horns bolted to a temporary frame and we hooked them up to my Altec 902 drivers. We changed the BEC xover as suggested by Bob and wired everything up. Because I don't have room in the corners to toe in my speakers this arrangement worked out fine. I was able to hear the new components and to toe them in for the first time. What a difference! I am very pleased with the results...the horns and drivers are so much clearer as most of you already know. The nest step is to build the bass bins and Bluesboy has already cut the parts. We have the woofers and I will be ordering Beymas. We will paint the 1" mdf with piano black lacquer and make a new frame that will let the tweeter sit on top of the 511B face frame. There will be no top cabinet. I will sit the xover under the back of the horn...so in other words everything on top of the bass bin will be exposed. I can then move the horn and tweeter as often as I like and try differents placements. Thanks to BEC and Bluesboy! Chuck What an ugly thing it must be........'till you dim the lights and press the "on" button...... Congrats tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Yeah, well did you measure. Where's your FR, distortion, and polar plots? You would have us believe that bastardized top section sounds better on your word alone! Nothing sounds better than the Klipsch Heritage top section -- it's all in your head! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Speakerfritz...thanks for the encouragement. I am excited about the project and the sound so far. Will do pics later. Chops....the bass bins are sealed and just like the 1977 klipsch factory drawings except that we are using 1" mdf like the La Scala lls. Terry...I guess you are right... they may be ugly but the number of problems it corrects in my set up makes me happy. I think when we are finished it may look better than you think. I am a little concerned about the boxy appearance especially with the tweeter mounted on the face frame like a little box. Like you said...when the lights are off.... DeanG....I don't know what to think about your post...it caught me off guard. I really wasn't expecting the negativity...maybe I caught you on a bad day. No testing was done other than the test Bluesboy and I did with our ears and that is the important one to me. Believe me when I say that I am not trying to get anyone to believe anything about this project or the sound it produces. The modifications or "bastardized" top section as you called it is purely for my enjoyment and the statements I made are only my impressions. As for the heritage top section sounding so good...I would say that there are many on the forum who have complained about the harshness/ringing of the k-400 and many who are using Beymas and BEC's tweeter rather than the k-77. I will make a deal with you....you do your charts, curves and graphs and plot everything just so.... and I will listen to music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Does a person have to put a smiley face in, to show they are joking? I didn't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 What -- you don't believe you can actually hear a cleaner, more open, and effortless sound until after you measure? You know, the ears are easily fooled -- just because it sounds better doesn't mean it sounds better, lol! You must have missed the smiley at the end of my post -- I was being sarcastic. Enjoy your upgrade. I dumped the stock top section myself some time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tagger Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Speakerfritz...thanks for the encouragement. I am excited about the project and the sound so far. Will do pics later. Chops....the bass bins are sealed and just like the 1977 klipsch factory drawings except that we are using 1" mdf like the La Scala lls. Terry...I guess you are right... they may be ugly but the number of problems it corrects in my set up makes me happy. I think when we are finished it may look better than you think. I am a little concerned about the boxy appearance especially with the tweeter mounted on the face frame like a little box. Like you said...when the lights are off.... DeanG....I don't know what to think about your post...it caught me off guard. I really wasn't expecting the negativity...maybe I caught you on a bad day. No testing was done other than the test Bluesboy and I did with our ears and that is the important one to me. Believe me when I say that I am not trying to get anyone to believe anything about this project or the sound it produces. The modifications or "bastardized" top section as you called it is purely for my enjoyment and the statements I made are only my impressions. As for the heritage top section sounding so good...I would say that there are many on the forum who have complained about the harshness/ringing of the k-400 and many who are using Beymas and BEC's tweeter rather than the k-77. I will make a deal with you....you do your charts, curves and graphs and plot everything just so.... and I will listen to music I think you missed the sarcasm dripping from Dean's post. I'm still chuckling a bit... Seriously though, I'm interested in some more details of your build. Are you going two-way with the 511/902's or are you using a K-77? Which sealed Klipsch cabinet are you modeling the bass bin after? What are your crossover points? Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tagger Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Whoops, sorry, you did mention a tweeter. I missed that. Still interested in the X-over points though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 I called another forum member before I responded and asked what he thought of the post by Dean since I had never known him to be negative. The reply was "I think he is serious". If he was joking as you suggest it went right over my head and my apologies to him. Thanks Marvel for your imput.[:S] Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 DeanG...sorry I missed the sarcasm, my apology. My last post is a tongue tied smiley face. Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts....I was very excited about the improved sound and all the invaluable information I have gathered has been from this forum or from Bluesboy directly. I continue to be amazed that you can buy used or after market components, have a friend that is a master carpenter, steal other peoples ideas and have a wonderful end product for such a low price. LOL back. Joe....Beyma tweeters for now but I wonder has anyone heard the Visaton tweeter mentioned in Stereophile review of the La Scala ll? I haven't ordered the Beymas so any imput appreciated. I don't know about the xover point other than we changed to a different tap on the BEC xover to compensate for my 8 ohm drivers. Maybe Bluesboy can shed some light on this. BEC had responded on an earlier thread about the mod needed and we did as he said. As I said earlier...I love what I am hearing! Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Are you running as a two-way right now or as a three-way? I ask, because though dropping to tap 2 takes care of the attenuation issue with the midrange -- you now have a driver that goes out to almost 20kHz as opposed to one that takes a nose dive after 5kHz. If you haven't done it already, you need a low pass section for the 902 to roll off its output and to blend it properly with the tweeter. Put a .13mH 14 AWG air core inductor between tap 2 and squawker positive on the barrier strip. What tweeter to use is not an easy decision. After months of going back and forth between Bob's CTS 125 and the Beyma -- I finally settled on the Beyma. I know two who went in the other direction. I listen to a lot of hard rock, alternative, and metal -- and the Beyma's more laid back presentation just works better for that kind of music. I also think with the Trachorn at least -- it's more seemless and doesn't so much take on a life of its own. This is strictly in the context of my system and my music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 I am using it as a 3 way but this is a very temporary set up just so I could listen to the horns. Don has already told me I need to go to a different xover so that we could experiment a little with different settings. Dean...I am pretty ignorant about xovers so I will defer to Don with your suggestion. At this point the k-77 is firing straight ahead while the 511s are toed in. I know this is a problem but the tweeter-511 face frame should correct this. Don has the Beymas and they do sound good. I like to follow what others have tried rather than recreate the wheel. It sounds like you have already done all this so any suggestions appreciated. Don is working on the bass bins this morning and has mounted the k-33s. I was hoping to make do with the xovers for awhile but it sounds like I need to go ahead and change those to. I guess I can sell my Altec woofers, k-400 horn and drivers, my k-77 tweeters and the AA xovers since I won't be using them. Thanks for the info. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Chuck, I am probably one of those people that Dean referred to who has also evaluated Bob's tweeters vs. the Beymas - and I prefer the sound of Bob Crites' tweeter, by a little bit. I currently run three Eminence tweeters (the driver that Bob's tweeter uses) up front, two APT200s with Trachorns and one of Bob's CT125s in my center Belle. In the rear, I run Beymas with my Altecs. I found that I liked the sound of the Beymas better if you cross them up higher. I run the Beymas with 811 Altec mids, and therefore, am able to bring the Beymas in around 10,000. Others have run Beymas by cutting them in higher, and I think it may be Shawn Fogg who first noticed a difference with that kind of driver. To me, the Beymas sound more natural on certain instruments crossed up that high. Since you run 511s, you could conceivable raise your upper crossover point, but it would mean modding a crossover to do so. I will say that Beymas crossed over higher sound pretty close to the Eminence tweeters, but Beymas crossed down where most put their crossovers (6-7k) sound quite different. All in all, it comes down to personal preference because I could live with either tweeter (and do). If you decide to go with the Beymas and want to save money by buying a used pair, let me know - I may decide to part with mine. I have wavered back and forth on switching out my rear Beymas for Eminence, if for no other reason than to have all five tweeters match perfectly. Then again, I could still live happily with Beymas in the rear for a long time also. Every day brings a new thought on the subject. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Thanks Carl for the info. Definitely interested in your used Beymas. Let me know if you want to sell them. I will be away from the pc for the weekend after 5:00 pm today but if you want to call.... my number is 910 395-0825 or 910 200-1225. Know anyone with xovers for the k-33, 511b, 902 Altec (8 ohm), Beyma combination? Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 For some reason, I thought you were using Type A's. What exactly are you using for networks Chuck? You said you have AA's, are they original, or did you have them rebuilt by Bob (or bought new ones)? Unless you have a big room or are into some serious live level listening there's no need to sell those networks. Just add the coil I suggested for the squawker section and go with the single 2uF cap for the tweeter. It's a hideously simple modification. Set your network up this way and when you get the Beymas you don't have to do anything more -- pretty much what I run. If you want better imaging and are willing to sacrifice some HF dynamics, or really plan on jacking the volume control -- then you kind of need to move to a higher order filter (like the ALK). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 You are right Dean...mine are BEC's type A. I guess I have been on the keyboard too long today. Thanks for catching that and for the modification info. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Chuck:I tried calling you several times this weekend at the above numbers but did not get you. I borrowed another pair of Eminence tweeters from Sheltie Dave and switched them back and forth with the Beymas this weekend (with the rear Altecs). The Beymas are definitely smoother at higher spls and would work better with a first order tweeter section, which I have with the Altecs. Therefore, I have finally decided to keep them after all. Sorry. I will still be keeping Eminence up front, but they do better with higher order tweeter sections, which I have with ALK srs. Oh, and Klipschorns bass bins are now in my basement. The real fun begins. Next, will be swapping out everything for my modded K-horns (trachorns) and modded Belles (w/ 811s). Good luck in finding another set of Beymas. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Posted November 13, 2006 Author Share Posted November 13, 2006 Thanks Carl for the reply. Primered and sprayed first top coat of piano black on the new bass bins yesterday...Bluesboy will post some pics today. Decided to frame the horn and tweeter in a natural finished wood possibly rosewood to go with the black bass bins. I think it will look good. Good luck with your project and post some pics. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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